jolin012

good, that's how it should be yes ofcourse, same as i suggested. although i also suggested making it 60 sec, and only one clone(15sec/30 sec), but 2 clones for lv 3(60 sec). nopes, same can be done with other types of towers than pures, the pure clones not costing anything is not what's wrong. what's wrong is that they remain when original pure is sold. which explains why i suggested "is clone sold, then original sold." ahh, i get it now. what you misunderstood was when i said "when original is removed, clone should be removed".you thought i meant if trickery is sold, it's clones are removed too, right? i meant: when the cloned tower, pure or damagetower of any type, is sold, it's clones should sell too. i mean, same with smith and well, if buffed tower is removed, buffs are removed too But the lingering is not removed! as mentioned in the first post, the "remove clone if real removed" would remove everything except the problem of building one tower, cloning it to +100% for 15 or 30 sec, then selling the original, and building a new type of original. That would only be removed by doing as i proposed the first time i suggested trickery to make the lvl 1 and 2 clones to do last full time, but deal only 25% and 50% damage. using perhaps a negative buff of fireup, (*hoping* that they don't stack with blacksmith like 25% damage+ a 50% fireup for da clone to deal 75% damage instead of 25+12.5=37.5%)

Conclusion of da beast post: I've found trickery bugs/problems and how to solve them (i think, unless someone or something proves me wrong). So - you implemented a new trickery tower, again without telling anything about it beforehand a) the "clones linger and disable you to build" is a good idea, cause it no longer works to clone a tower, and sell teh cloned tower and keep the clones. (or begin building a tower, clone during upgrade, then abort). But - there are problems with the tower, as soon as i saw it in the changelog i figured one bug abuse, which is why you should have told us before... yes, i can be a bit, shall i say, aggresive, heh you should know by now, to ideas, however all i mean is to critique them in good sense. if i want them away there is a reason (heh i know it's more fun to test an idea out ingame rather than getting it axed in words), however this one, i don't want away, I'd like to help it get better. So - with the removed bugabuseability there came a new one. One can max 3 elements, build refineds of each of them, upgrade 2 of one type, create clones, abort upgrade, upgrade another type, create clones, abort upgrade, upgrade the 2 of the last type, clone, cancle upgrade. and viola, with 2 pure essences, i have 12 cloned pures, but no real pure tower. the pure essence show weird numbers. pured clones cost instead of 0 essences they cost -1 essence. and if you have more pure clones than real pures, it can't show a negative number ofc, so it shows a 7 digit number. Perhaps you made the mistake to make pures instead of cost one and cost minus one food, made it cost one and cost minus 2 food, to cost a total of -1 food, and having more of those clones than reals, can give negative food stock, then it goes crazy. c) the ratio system isn't a bad idea. but I don't understand the math behind them. here's a little table of how many clones could be created, dependant on trickery tower level, out of different amount of cloned originals. [pre:1llq7ksh]Originals-> 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | ------------+----+----+----|----| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 6 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 5 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 10 | 13 | /\ || Trickery LvL[/pre:1llq7ksh] So - Why? First of all, those numbers don't look like 25%, 50% and 200%. Second, Why at all have different ratios for different levels, the clones allready last for different times with same linger time. meaning, with same amount of clones lingering they will have the correct amount of clones in play. all levels of trickery should allow 2 clones/tower. Note that on lv 1, 7/8 of the time those clones will be lingering, so it's not a 200% buff. This would also have been prevented if you told of the tower beforehand. d) even with correct numbers, this is not a perfectly good idea. by switching towers of damage, you will get 200% bonus the first 15 seconds from a lvl 1 trickery, and that takes down an entire wave in 15 sec. That is not good. So - how to solve this? The beta 17 system does not work cause: You can create clones out of several tower types, but do not need to keep all the types. all clones that can be cloned within 120 seconds can be created within one second, so you do not need to keep the tower type for long. And how to solve the problem? as I always wanted "if original sells clones should autosell too" which is very reasonable because if a well tower, is removed, it's buff is too. And with the new linger system, combined, it will not be possible to just reupgrade+cancle the same tower and create new clones. remaining problem: it would still be possible to add 200% buff for 15sec. that'd be 100%buff for 30sec which is one wave, using lv 1 trickery, and changing towers of attack the next wave. this would only work on random mode. or putting the towers on non autocast so that ye wan wait with the 25% buff and make 100% buff on the hard waves, like mech/undead/weak element. if it's not a big deal ye can call it strategy sure, but when it's about 100-200% buff out of 25%-50% on the hardest waves, it's kind of a deal. perhaps it's a bad idea that one tower can have 2 clones and then rest for the remaining of the 120sec. perhaps it's better with one clone per original, and 60sec of lingering? or should I say, That would be better, just wanna know if it is possible, to have the lv 3 clone last 120sec but only affect the "ratio"(aka they linger) for only 60 sec. That way, tooltip would be about:"create a clone that lasts for (15/30/120) seconds. Minor problem still remaining: for 60 seconds no other clone can be created out of that tower". It would still take 60 seconds to buff a tower by 200% (need to cast, wait 60, cast again to have 2 clones), and i don't like that.how to solve: I would like it to be the way that i suggested trickery from teh very first time, with a negative fireup buff, removing 75%/50%/adding 100%(having only one clone if lvl 3 too) damage to the clone, but perhaps if combined with blacksmith, it won't work out, because several %s affect each other like %al units, not a new regular % multiplication)

same here, i built pures, 3/3 pure essences used. then cloned them, and had an 7 digit number of pures counting as used. 4 million something.

adding "most powerful single-element tower in the game" would have helped, but now you told us. and yes, light is most powerful in singleplayer, vs noobs and vs bosses. though it is bad not nessesarily as good in a high level multiplayer game, you won't be able to fire the light tower from area 7 to area 9 anymore (placed at 5). etc

umm.. what? about "every try makes them buggier" that is for sure not true. changing to this wasn't an attempt to get rid of some bug, it was a total concept change I'd say. and, the tower got better than before. boulder/hookshot is a better idea than regular blinking imo. but yes, some bugs appeared.

same.

yes ofcourse it is. else you wouldn't need more than one or 2 elements. tehre are also the support towers which are combinations of elements, and are very important. and i agree with kirby, first you say light is the best tower in teh game, changed your mind ?

neither i understand the reason behind this? is it to make the game play itself?

erm.. what do you mean?

no, periodics is more powerful than pures in 4.0 public beta. i can reveal that it's more balanced in coming versions though

perhaps spammers have in common to do their first 3 posts with less than 1 minute in time between them? i mean if they have a bot that copies pastes, that should be faster - unless thei're dlayed to avoid filters allready? idk, just an idea if they're a script or w/e it's called, avoiding it, if it is true that they almost always spam their first 3 posts without delay in between. Also i like the "what animal is on the picture" or "how many eyes does the cat have?" if it's possible to add and if the registrers are bots

Cisz and hole% are correct. Ronald is just a "damage test"/ "defense test" that can be use d to choose a winner in a multiplayer game.

looks like it, although the AoE/ST with slow case isn't all clear yet^^. at least not to me. and i wouldn't say zealout needs alot of micro. although it needs thinking for placement and boss-summon timing etc.

correct, and therefore it should be called "can cast on any damage tower" and not "can be cast on any tower". and for smith/well change from: "increases a friendly units attack speed/damage by 25%" into: "increases the damage(/atk speed) of a (friendly) damage tower by 25%." beta 17 edit: since the concept of trickery was changed that line was removed. so instead add "can only cast on damage towers.

warcraft 3 doesn't support more than 1 000 000 gold unspent. to get a higher networth, if that is what you want you have to spend the rest of the gold on as expensive towers as possible. that is utrue, more than 20k gold can be spent^^

same here - me due to not having the time i expected to have. why it's so strange is because the first build was hardest and worst i think - had too few tries with da better one:/ anyway, the winner is still the winner, and the best contestant of the draft, i don't mean if i lose i really didn't lose. but that'd be nice of course hehe.

ok, i must've read wrong then. i think i missed "veryhard" and jsut read "all modes set to normal", that existed before. anyway, please do remove my score, it doesn't belong ina veryhard challange just cause i read wrong^^ it's a poor replay anyway

which realm are you on?

hey there:) only play @hamachi? ever use Bnet?

do not compare it to tidal or zealout. A) compare it to a tower of iot's own group, aka Damage DUals fo the same level. do not compare it to a tower that benefits more from slow or other special teqnices hard to compare(for example zealout, charges up and has full power, a larger share of the time it attacks, while ice doesn't). you can however, compare it to say, poison flametower etc.

um - continue to be balanced reguarding dmg type? isn't that something that it currently is NOT? some 3ele combos have both their dmg duals to the same element type(taking for granted any reasonable 3ele combo to max would be one with 2 dmg duals and one boost dual). like eg current LFE is and if what ye suggested, DWN would be. Best would be ofc to make it one of teh solutions where all those builds have 2 different dmg types of dmg duals. I would like what K suggested better than the current, (poisonwater->darkness etc) as soon as i saw tehre is a model for boiling water. (so steam/kindle cold actually be boiling water, not fire.) I saw a hero in dota, named kunka use it. was the boiling thing before the hydro toss.

If you place it well it' won't do 50% without micro. perhaps 75%.

i think tehy follow individual killcount. aka 15*0(2 kills equals 0 lives)=0 lives rather than 15*2=30 30/3= 10 lives. but I didn't test it out

no, it's not % based, that was just to make it simple. but perhaps it just got more complex . anyway, you're right, eery 3rd or 9th or w/e kill gives the life. so if you use only one life tower, and no otehr tower you'll notice that it does give life exactly every x creeps.

you did right, even the ideas that feel most weird can turn out to be brilliant. Hehe, that would be a funny tower:P sadly it's far too random to work in any other than masses. and dealing damage on one wave for the cost of gold can be misused i fear.