Cisz

ST = Single target. I used the term "single target" in the same post, so I thought it is ok to abrieviate the second time.

Kirby pointed out that muck is easier to get than pollution, and is stronger, and I found this to be true. Pollution needs to significantly outdamage muck to be usefull. Pollution has 0.9 dmg/gold/sec and basically hits everything in a general direction. Muck does 1.65 dmg/gold/sec in 300 splash (less but good), so poison is to weak. Focused fire (same splash radius as muck) does 1,75 dmg/gold/sec, so pollution needs to get at least 1,75 too and muck is overpowered. A lv.2 dual needs to outdamage a focused single, as it needs twice the elements to be built, right? I havn't got my dmg/gold/sec list here (it's on my broken comps hd...), but I remember that this was planned that way.

@Timberwolf - Nah, that monsoon was just for decoration.. I liked the swirly noise.. Ok, you got me there, but still my replay showed that sun can be a useful splash, I even played at 7 and 4 there. @Kirby - True, pollution needs to significantly outdamage muck to be usefull. Pollution has 0.9 dmg/gold/sec and basically hits everything in a general direction. Muck does 1.65 dmg/gold/sec in 300 splash (less but good), so poison is to weak. Focused fire (same splash radius as muck) does 1,75 dmg/gold/sec, so pollution needs to get at least 1,75 too and muck is overpowered. I'll do a post in the dev section about this.

I think the main reason why I get shreddered so much is a bad habbit: Aoe slow as first triple. It was a good plan back in 3.0, but nowadays single target really has its use. I usually remember the shredders when I'm about to add my 3rd aoe/splash triple on pick, and go "damn". I really should use st more.

Ahh, if only I had a decent computer at my hands.. Last time someone said "this tower sucks" it was sun, basically the same as poison is now (line based dmg). And I released a replay, owning the map with sun. So this calls for a poison/gunpoweder replay with a little muck for slowing (kirby said "gunpowder sucks"). But I can't do one right now.

I have the same feeling too, but I am not sure if hosting really went down. Maybe I'm just not as patient anymore, to wait for a minute or two for a game to pop up. I often did that a while ago. imo 3.0 hosting has not increased though.

I can't take the blame for the shredders turning out so hellish, but to put an undead wave after an element (with a high probability of level 2) is based on my attempts to make the waveorder harder.

Hey kirby, you are right - jolin and you are a bit better at farming than I am, but I wouldn't be as bad as in this draft if I would have a faster refresh for my cursor position than once every 0.5 seconds. If I don't manage to place the curser right without seeing where it is, I usually either can't rebuild fast enough or have to use whatever placement I accidently pointed at. Wish me luck on fast mainboard delivery, and I'll join you on us-west. It can't be as bad as this comp. About my replay: The two zealots on the upper corner were a deliberate overbuild for a wave I could not stop (45, composite). I tried to spent my whole cash in arrows and still leaked like 3 times in a row, with zero gold left. So my only hope was to build additional elemental towers. I was awake for about 20h at that point, so maybe they would have been better at 3. And no Sir, mortar sucks not. Focused earth has a dmg/gold/sec of 1.48 with a splash of 350, while mortar has a dmg/gold/sec of 2.275 and a splash of 300. So ask yourself: Does 17% more splash size outperform 53% more damage? And the long range on top of that? I tried different versions and mortar helps a lot with light. It is ofc much harder to get, as you have to level twice the elements, so it is only fair for it to own so hard. For your replay, nice job man. I have two small suggestions for you, and you'll go "d'oh" when I tell you the second one: 1.) This is just an opinion: Maybe the zealots would have been better more to the right. Often only two of them could fire, as the creeps were allready round the bend, and imo the best thing about 3 is the long second pass, which you kind of negated with zealots at 2. You could argue that if they all die before they reach the bend, your version is faster, but as far as I remember, you have to wait for the last zealots to do the job so often, that the overall time would have gone down with zealots to the right. And no, afaik the zealots wouldn't have lost buff there, or only on pretty easy waves. 2.) I believe your corrosion usage can be improved: Corrosion and hydrochloric don't stack, and whatever is applied last overrides the older acid debuff. So keeping a corrosion between your two hydrochlorics reduced your armour reduction. I would guess you lost about 1/3 of your debuff power there. Have a look for yourself: Pause the replay when the creeps are under fire and check the acid level on them. Many of them have level 1 only, right? Imo it's better to either upgrade the middle one before the upper one, or sell the middle one. (The upper one allready sucks a bit since it can't do full dot on the second pass, as the creeps leave the map before it runs out.) Even watching replays suck on this comp, 3 x speed lags so bad, I can't even properly strafe the camera. So I will take my time to do you all justice. And yes, shame on chris for not obeying to the replay rules. A forum rule enforcement commando has been sent to your house to withdraw and annex any and all yoghurt and/or curd related provisions. Let that be a warning to you.

WB chris. Once holepercent has confirmed that he has your replay, we can start posting them here.

We should'nt post replays here before chris has said something, right? There is a slight chance that he still wants to participate. Or do you, almighty O%, disqualify him without hearing him out?

That sounds like a virus/trojan to me.

I've got one that I could release, but I'll try to do it better 1 or 2 times I guess... Edit: Ok, I'm getting tired. I could play better, if only there was more time, and my computer wouldn't have broken down, and I had more sleep, and the darleks are hunting me again, and there are raptors in my backyard..

Hey sandwiches99, welcome to the forums.

That depends on if you kill them. Do you kill them?

Math tells me that elemental arrows hit composite targets at 2.1666 dmg/gold while super arrows do 2.842 dmg/gold. If you are fast enough, you can gain 30%. In theorycraft at least. My experience tells me, that it's easier to relocate 800g of elemental arrows, than to build 800g of superarrows once in a laggy game.

As for two pass or long pass.. That depends on if you kill them. If you kill them you can put more dmg towers on long pass or a shorter two pass (like moving your zealots form 4 to the right). If you don't kill them, maybe it's because towers that belong on two pass are on long pass.

You replay will help us help you a lot. Sadly my comp broke down and I haven't got evercraft here, so I havn't been able to watch your replay yet. But still: On very easy your problem should be choosing the right towers. Placement is not really that important, as long as you don't put your slow towers on one end and you dmg towers on the other end of the map. The easiest build is taking all 6 elements. There are 4 aoe slowing towers (nova, windstorm, muck, roots), and you should have one of each kind. And you should use damage towers that do splash damage, like quaker.

And ofc noone said it needed to be karawasa that's active. So why don't you try one of our wonderous challanges? Or tell a tale from your distant past?

tft = The frozen Throne. Your folders are correct. Let me guess, when you start a replay, you don't get the error "map is missing", so your map seems not to be missing, but you get the error "this replay is for another version of warcraft", so you need another version of warcraft maybe? Most replays here are 1.21b, so if you have 1.22a and don't use evercraft, you have a problem there.

Hi energig. I once non-leaked wave 9 on vhx with relocated amped water, but relocated cannons should work too.

Ya, well, we train a lot. We play forum challenges, which are all on very hard, we race each other around the map, we do ronald hunts, and exchange the gained info on this board. After two years of playing this map, reading and writing a lot of info and even working on the current version, some eletd related info got stuck in my head apparently. Besides... It just occured to me that this is the second eletd tournament jolin012 has played, and the last time he was dropped by a disc. Now this was a decent way of comback.

Kirby is right, there is no such thing as "best tower", except the overpowered periodics. Turn your question around, then it makes much more sense: Which tower needs which placement? There is a best way to play for each and every tower. Most towers will do best on 2-pass. The most obvious exception are towers that can damage everything in their range at the same time, like nova, quaker, tidal and kindle. Those belong on long pass. Windstorm should be played long pass too, as a two pass placement usually makes the hurricane summon on the wrong side of the ledge. Long range towers (range of 1100 and more) like dark, light, impulse or gunpowder, belong in the middle of the map, where they can reach basically everything. When placed correctly they can hit creeps left of 7, under 2, right of 6 and above 8. De-buff towers that don't switch target automatically, like flame and ice, should be played short pass. Does this help? If not, ask again, and we will try to explain better.

Here are my versions of the replays: Jolin and I are very close skill wise and I would consider him slightly better, but recently I won more often. Maybe the lag ballanced out his current skill drop, so it's about fair. 15x3 Etd(4pb avh sr) euro tour r1.w3g 15x4 Etd(4pb avh sr) euro tour fin.w3g

It's over - and the winner is Jolin012 Grats, good job. Replays coming soon (will be 1.21a though).

About the links: Yes, you are absolutely right.