jolin012

I'd say uo can build 5 of it even in a quick game. (not that I mean it's worth it, selling supprt towers and such. but In mine and cisz replay i have 5 unspent lumber (2 for tier 2 and tier 3 in one element, then 3 pure essence. and networth is at 85k of which 30 is the 2 periodics i allready have. 55 left if i sell all but ptotes so ya can get 5 periodics at a bit slower play. or the same play with host advantage=interest farming ability or a bit less overbuilding.

ElectronX - that's true, you need 3 in an element, 1 in all doesn't count. btw - you won't have 20k at lvl 35 (in a normal game).

better than current trickery,(that's because the current sucks alot, and this one sucks less(no offence)) but worse than the sugguested trickery here http://www.eletd.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=746 .

sounds... I don't know really. Can't tell without testing it. Worth a try maybe.. but first I'd like to know a bit more about it.

does *boost* include armor reduce and damage amplify?

good question, when i talked to him last he said that the chance is actually 300/current hp, not including boost, and i gave these proposals of how it' can be changed.

Err - Why? Even though it's composite damage that doesn't mean it shall sell for 100%. it's not like the other pures can move by sell rebuild, and the ptote is even rather quick to build. In the beginning it means you shall hold out with interest farming arrows as long as you can and that's why the weak arrows, compared to amplified sells at 100. but there will never be the choice of "when am i ready to switch my ptote for real damage towers, i want more cash first"

offtopic sry. but 13est which difficulty ar you testing 3ele builds on?

drownings ability is probably the most imbalanced atm. it does not get buff by blacksmith voodoo corrosion enchantment flame(dmg amplify) polar (the amplified part of polar). and is both armor and armor type ignoring. I think instead of a chance equal to 3000/creeps life after the normal damage it should be chance=(total damage of towers normal attack, aka after armor and such.)/creep hp after normal attack. a bird whispered in my ear that it's might be impossible to gather info about towers normal attacks final damage, but maybe to read out current hp before and after normal attack. if so it'd be something like chance=(creep hp before minus creep hp after)/creep hp after. This way it'd get boosted by smith enchantment corrosion polar flame in terms of higher chance. well would give increased speed=more chances for instantkill. The word instantkill doesn't really stack with voodoo either we accpet it, or change the tower into something else (i don't like to change it), or make voodoo in some way do the double effect (as the normal attack is 50% of the tower)

It's not just imba, it's a bug^^

I don't like that it's possible in multiplayer, to "introduce newbies to the game". They'll only get confused. I didn't even know there were several game option, and was very confused first timei got a hero (first time i playerd hero mode, but i hadn't chosen it). Maybe there's a way to make this only work in a game of one player. or everybody has to vote for the mode to work (planned games). Another mode on the voting in the beginning will just make ppl stop trying to learn all modes. maybe just do it -sandbox every player has to write it for the mode to work. (too bad ppl don't have an own will:( they follow what the host does and write any command) The rest of the mode... I'm not sure.. but it would be a bit helpful with a way to set lvl and such in game.

"For Best Kill Ronald" : viewtopic.php?f=2&t=767&start=15

Ah, (that's not the forums) I guess kara have forgot/not yet updated that to 4.0^^ But the 2nd thing you pointed out was wrong anyway.

Tell us where on the forum you are quoting from?

Hm, you're right in naming Impulse and those, we should actually include to one list all towers and test if they do what they shall do correctly. Towers that do stack with smith&well atm... but maybe something's going wrong?: Gunpowder - what could be wrong with this? it doesn't even have any effect. Quark - I'm not sure is blacksmith works with the effect - to be tested. Well does not really work out with the effect. maybe make it, like tidal, charge up it's effect with attacks, or if it's possible, make this mana based tower so that it will increase mana regen by well. Spring forward to be increasing mana regen could actually solve a lot of problems with those "spellcasters" that can't get buffed, that imo should be. Those will be stated in a list later. Mushroom - there might be something wrong with this one. To test: does the sporeclouded mushroom increase attackspeed by 33% or 100% if it is buffed by well tier 3? Hydro - This tower get's buffed by blacksmith to increase total damage by x%. by Well it increases not only total dps by x%, but also the slow effect it has. Maybe there isn't a way to fix this, and it ain't a big problem. Flame - This is a support tower and shall Imo bot get boosted by smith or well. however, it does. Ice - Should work with smith&well, does work but doesn't stack perfectly, read first post. Triples: Flamethrower - imo napalm should get boost both from smith and well... but how would that be possible with well... Laser - This should work with well - but will it's bonus damage from short range get increased by smith, or just the main damage? To be tested Muck - Does get boosted, should get boosted imo. Even though this is a support tower I think needs the possibility to get boosted, as it might even need 2 of it to make sure it slows all, I'll explain why it's worth to be boosted in case of need. Maybe someone thinks well effects the slow ability while blacksmith doesn't, but as long as this tower is not microed very much it will keep on attacking the same unit until it's out of sight anyway. This is and should be able to get boosted by both smith and well properly. Jinx - I don't like this tower so it probably has problems. hehe, just kidding, but seriously, it has the same problem as hydro, that the slowing part of it's efffect is effected by well but not smith. The damage part however, that is the most important, should get effected effected by both. it does get effected by well for sure, the more attacks the bigger chance of a successful teleport. I'm not sure if the effect is effected by blacksmith, I don't think so, but I think it should do, and hope it's possible. Warning, this tower does not work well with slowing towers Voodoo - This tower does get affected by smith&well... It's not a very strong damage towers but maybe the damage of the support towers is actually worth to make stack with well&smith... In 5 ele builds the defense is about 66% support towers... would it be a good thing if support towers were changed to stack with well&smith? I think I'd say no. because 5ele builds and 6ele build especially shall not be encouraged to play. Hail - This one does actually appear to work out very well. If the spring forward=mana regen idea works out, this one would just have to switch back to the classic cooldown idea. Drowning - Everything about this can be read in the first post. Gold - This one works out without problems. Quaker - This one works out with well. According to karawasa, does stack with blacksmith, but still not tested. Zealout - This one has problems with well. Well makes the tower reach max attackspeed faster, but it doesn't increase the cap. So, it works better than blacksmith if it does only have time for ~<60 attacks until it resets, but where it has time to reach the cap , such as placing infront of the entrance on ve extreme, well doesn't work at all. Also it might be the same as with mushroom, that when it has not reached cap it still doesn't do the 100% increase (if it's tier 3) but instead 100% increase from the original attack speed. This tower has to be fixed and tested. more to be read in first post. Enchantment - This one should imo not get boost. it is not a damage tower, and has about the same dps as well tier 2. Polar - Same as Voodoo Flesh Golem - This one gains the same boost from well as blacksmith. the boost is 25%/50%/100%. Hmm... maybe the blacksmith boost doesn't stack with level up boost? that it adds 25%, where 25% is 25% of 4000 and not 4000+x400 x=lvl. Tested, bad news: Blacksmith tier 1 on flesh golem tier 1 always gives 1000dmg boost, nomatter the level of the fleshie:( has to be fixed in some way. Impulse - Same as Laser, probably only needed to test one of them, but testing is the way to find bugs, so maybe test both anyway^^ Tidal - Well makes the ability ready faster. Blacksmith should make ability deal more damage - to be tested. Those are the towers that currently does get boosted. Here comes the towers that currently doesn't get boosted. Magic - Imo all damage towers should get boost, even spell casters, so. Well would work with this tower if spring forward is changed to increase mana regen. Blacksmith would need to increase damage of the bonus damage from ability too. I don't know if that's a possible thing. Decease - Should get boost. Well will work with the sugguested idea, it will be a bit unique cause there would be double flies out for some seconds if combined with waterfall:P. Blacksmith would have to increase the damage of Flies. again, is the possible? Poison - Should get boosted. Well will work with the sugguested idea, if poison switches to a mana based attack. (Maybe offtopic but Imo Poison should not do it's effect so rapidly, but instead more dmg, maybe dmg 500 instead of 300 and time per attack multipied by 5/3.) Blacksmith should incerase the damage of the poison. Is this possible? Blacksmith - does not get boosted. should not get boosted. Peace. Electricity - Should get boosted. Well would work with the sugguested idea if switched to manabased. Blacksmith would increase the damage of every attack, preferably the final damage if that's possible, means the 10% increase from jump will also be effected by blacksmith. This might be to hard? Maybe another idea is a to make it a normal attack basing on glaive bounce but with changed attack modal and things, if that's easier. Kindle - Should get boosted. Well would work with the sugguested idea if switched to manabased. It'd mean the tower has, maybe 10 mana that regenerates at x (1+y) speed, where x is original speed 10 mana/sec and y is the level of spring forward, so without springforward x(1)=x and with spring forward tier 1 x(1+0.25). Maybe there is an easier way to do this, i don't know with the coding what is easiest. if boosted by blacksmith the damage every time it toasts will be increased by 25%/50%/100%. Another idea i just got of how this can be done is to have a 1-1 attack that deals no damage, and has no modle tor attacking, but every attack it does gives a 100% chance to deal 150 damage to units within a 750 area, just like quaker but 100%(that's not how the tooltips gonna be, just trying to prove this should be possible to do just like the quaker.) (in other words, a dot that can follow speed and damage boosts of the normal attack.) Well - Doesn't and shouldn't get boosted Triples: Roots - It's tricky really with those support towers to decide which one is a support tower and which one is a damage, as many of them are both. This can even be a stronger damage dealer than Muck so I'm completley unsure, aswell as i often use even corrosion storm nova and roots for damage. sometimes even voodoo. These are hard to do decide and maybe I should get a total answer that it would be 100% impossible to change them anyway before i start with this. Corrosion - same as roots. Oblivion - Dragon house has changed to skeletons lair (i don't like that) and still doesn't work with smith&well. Well and smith should absolutley work with this tower, but they don't. Damage and attackspeed shall be on the minions, possible ot make it come true? Nova - same as Roots Windstorm - same as Roots Hmm... and that's about it. Before we know how to move on we might need soe feedback from K.

The defense icon I mean. Adn maybe this is the wrong place to post more things about kindle. (tell me 13est if i ruin your thread, i can move this somewhere else if that'd be the case) Fire tower and water tower are 2 rapid firing towers, and spammig stop quick enough is impossible, none will use stop for fire and water tower, so, kindle can be renamed back to steam imo. I have a sugguestion (that should work with my sugguestion of a spring forward that also increases mana regen, posted in this thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=801 for well stacking with this tower) That sugguestion would make it able to change the forevr Dot into an aoe attack around itself, that happend every time mana reaches full. So it'd work with well and it would prevent the effect sound loop of kindle to be on even when there is no creep close.

LEt me add that Kindle describes itself as composit damage. not only in tooltip but also the little icon of it's attack damage

Let me add that atm there are a lot of spellcasting towers. Those towers Are not able to combine with smith&well. Example is electricity, magic and oblivion. I don't like them. They screw up build balance, and 2-element towers actually have to get better (it's mostly tier 3 that has to get better, and that's by the time some heavy supporters are raised.) If it's possible I'd like to see Kindle, Magic, Decease, Poison, Electricity, Quark, aswell as

I've started a minor project of how smith&well stacks with different towers, some imbalances can even be so great that they are defined bugs. For the lazy reader, A Conclution: I have found a way to make blacksmith and well work with all towers except those i think it should not work on. read further for details. It bases on the idea that Spring forward will also increase mana regen. And for blacksmith some more coding is needed so that it works out on such as magic. Don't have to go Woah! So my Hail will get double boost from well, and electric will not get boosted at all as it's not mana based? That's not the case, i know what I'm talking about, read further for details. Before I begin the work I'll put up a list of towers that i suspect might be weird, and not straight off 25/50/100% effectiveness increase. Ice Flame Hydro Mushroom Zealout Drowning Tidal Quaker Flesh Golem Ice I'll start off with Ice. first some random info: It infuses it's attacks with a Dot that represents 66% of it's damage if every attack by the tower hits a new unit (that is, if you play the tower with micro). If you don't play the tower with micro and place it on a normal 2 pass, it hits every creep about 2-3 times, (and then the Dot Reprecents about 50%-60%) Now this means that with the current setup about 33%-50% of the tower will be affected by a blacksmith tower. One big question is if this tower shall even be defined as a damage tower (it shall be able to be the target of smith or well) or if it shall be defined a support tower or spellcaster (not able to be the target of spells. I say it's a damage tower, and worth the fire up even though it does slow. It does have the availability of fire up and spring forward now, but what i whissh them to do is: Fire up shall increase the damage of the normal attack AND the Dot. I'm not sure about well. If it's not used with micro, the effect won't gain any advantage from beeing sprung forward, as it will hit the same target 5 times instead - and not change target 2x as often. If it'd always be like this, it'd be perfect if the spring forward effected dot's speed, so that instead of 400 damage/sec it'd to 400damage/(sec/0.25) so that it during the 4 sec or what it is, has time for 25% more dot. However, what bothers this idea, is that if the player does use micro, (manual target, or click stop after every attack) this will make double work. If the player uses manual micro and the spring forward just increases the attack speed it will also affect the ability, as it spreads over more units. If we do add that the effect also makes Dot work faster it will make double up for the microing player. Oh in the other hand if every tower shall put the effect on every unit, they must be spread so wide over the map that well won't reach anyway unless the player uses <4 ice towers, and in that case... hmm I guess that's a pretty odd case, the player does almost deserve it if he spreads the tower that well, and combining with a well of tier 1 (or maybe) doesn't really buff that much extra from the Dot. I've recently tested if the Dot damage increases by blacksmith, and it appeared it doesn't. So here's What I sugguest of Ice: If it is possible without problems make The Dot of ice affected by blacksmith and well. well will, except increasing the attack speed, reduce the time per damage, so instead of lasts 5 sec, 400dmg every 5 sec it'll do 400dmg every 1/(1+x)sec where x=0,25 or 0,50 or 1,0 depending on lvl of well(or 1/(1,25) or 1,50 or 2,0 if that is easier than 1+0.25). blacksmith will increase damage of the Dot aswell as the damage of the tower itself, so the dot would be 400*1,25 or 400+400*0,25 if that's easier^^. I guess those sugguestions are not very possible to fix but at least Ideas are worth posting, maybe not worth reading hehe Flame Next tower in my list is flame, a neighbour of Ice, and that's just why it appears in this list. First thought: shall the flame tower be affected by well&smith?(aka, is it a damage tower, as I believe only damage towers shall recieve boost) at first i though "yes ofcourse it's like ice it shall get boost." But then "No... it might look alike but infact it'salot more of a support tower, it has only 33-50% of the damage of the ice tower, and the effect of this tower shall not be able to be buffed, as it is a support effect itself. So - I say Flame shall not be able to be buffed by either smith or well. Why did this tower appear in the list at all? Not only because it currently gets affected, but also because some might think this is almost the same as ice - has same slow, same range, same attackspeed - but i say "I'ts not" Hydro Hydro appears in the list for one reason. because it can be used as a slow, not any slow, but a very unique slow. (it does stack with max slowed creeps) Isn't as effective as stunning like old gemstone, but still, I thought that maybe With well it could be increased to be used in game, While Blacksmith does not buff this "slow". Anyway, I quickly realized that this will probably not be "abused", is not possible to "fix", as well isn't even worth building for non upgraded hydros, and upgrading hydros is not worth when going for the effect, that doesn't increase. Same might go for Jinx tower, however, a jinx build combined with well might be discovered, as a "gemstone build" Mushroom Why I got to think of this a first was because I heard someone saying "well stacks so good with mushroom, uberspeed!" or something. And i went "o_O nah, but maybe the opposite!" I thought a bit, and thought that maybe it was bad designed, so that the buff only adds speed to the normal attackspeed so that the entire formule for attacksmeed goes x+200%+25% instead of x+200%*1,25 or x*2*1,25. This is yet to be tested,(if i don't get an answer from K) if the spore clowded mushroom get's it's speed increased by 33 or 100% form a waterfall. Zealout Zealout is familiar with mushroom. Also i have a question about this. it sais it increases speed by +4%, and then +4% again. does that mean 4+4=+8% or 1,04*1,04=+8,16% ? This one might have the same problem as Mushroom, that the further away from the main attack speed it gets, the less effective a speed buff is. There is also another imbalance between smith and well, and this one favors well, as well helps the zealout to quicker reach the cap, the max attack speed. If both these exists... ( i know the 2nd does, and that can't be removed really, if not doing like with flesh golem, increase based on damage dealt - eerr at least i thought it was so ) If both these do exist, I don't think it's actually a major problem, they balance each other out rather well. So I say, Check if the first "problem" exist. if it does exist, the 2 probs take each other out pretty well, so if it isn't very easy to fix them both, skip fixing them both. Drowning This one I've been complaining about some before. I don't like that it's both armor and armor type ignoring. I just figred that neither will blacksmith work with the effect, or my sugguestion for a new trickery. But I think i know how to fix drowning tower away from all these problems. The instantkill shall not be based on just a chance and creeps current hp. The towers normal attack deals damage of 3000. and the chance is 3000/current hp. I think you said it was possible to read the current hp before and after the attack - and then quickly add a instantkill based on the info gathered. so instead of 3000/creephpafterattack=chance i sugguest (creephpbeforeattack-creephpafter)/creephpafter=chance. If it works, it shall solve all problems, it will even care about if the target is affected by faerie fire or sunburn, and if the drowning tower is fired up. Atm it cares about nothing except well, and slowers. Tidal/Quaker I checked these. and they appear well planned even though tidal will lvl up faster with well, it actually fixes quaker too, in terms of safety. better 60 times the chance of 3000dmg to all, than 30 times the chance of 6000dmg to all. I'd like Tidal tower to be able to toggle autocast, and it might autocast as it reaches lvl 10. (you are ofcourse able to unselect autocasting, but currently it's the only tower that doesn't have autocast, except trickery, and it whould really be there for the one who wants the tower without having time to micro. Great work with these, which ones the strongest (counting that quaker actually hits 20% of the times a round) It depends on where placed, good/bad micro, and it'll still be a tight fight of which one's the best Flesh Golem Some things just don't work out all the time such as mr fleshie showing up in a random, maybe even at tier 1 after lvl 30. Anyway, This one works well with well. and as far as i understand of the message "it increases every time damage is dealt" it shall gain more mana if it deals more damage maybe? That means Blacksmith also makes it lvl up faster? That's it for now, please leave some feedback about the different points a brought up here, and I'll be glad

Ya earth armor non priority still there but something has to be the lowedt priority if it ain't possible to remove the priority things. And yes, flamethrower is too weak, It almost gets owned on nature lvls soloing with maybe 6 flamethrowers. maybe make is stronger but make the kaboom weaker? or try combining it with magic;) but I need to ask a question about flamethrower, if a unit kabooms, and kills another unit, is it like a chain reaction or is the 2nd unit not killed by the tower, but by a car accident? And also, how does Napalm work with other effects such as Blacksmith and Voodoo? Does blacksmith increase the damage of Napalm? If a unit is killed by the "delayed damage increase" from voodoo, is the unit killed by voodoo or by flamethrower? same goes for voodoo combining with things towers like gold and life and Fleshgolem (if it works as i believed it does). Imo The kill SHould be the damage towers, not the voodoos, as that is how it works with all other support towers such as blacksmith, well, roots, as long as they don't actually kill the unit themself, instead of the % depending on other dmg towers.

Yea, this is off the topic, but i agree with 13est that vote shall not be inventory, even though ppl are supposed to read the mode instructions; There shall be same boxes for voting elements as for voting modes.

I don't see anything missed Good work.

I know, i meant that I meant: Maybe it shall be either "... speed resets after 4 seconds of not attacking. After 60 attacks it stops gaining speed"

Thanks for thanks, and sorry for "criticism" instead of a more friendly feedback with the same info:P, i was a bit tired, and maybe upset of something else^^ If you get a new element and don't have time to think which towers it combines to, by pressing the tower query button(the one that gives you a list of all available towers) Also on composite levels you only deal 75%, so it IS tricky, but for composites before lvl 25-30 you can switch to super arrows if you are quick and want to, and have no other great towers. ( even though super arrows deal 100% most duals triples, and even some singlel element towers - get a better damage/gold on composite waves, so for lvl 18 - if you don't have a good nonsplash dmg tower, o for super arrows, you look hungry for micro Oh - and i forgot to tell you one thing from before - I noticed that if you are about to leak, you quickly run to the right side area 6 and build arrow tower or nature tower, that's an excellent trick but - if you do it at area 3 9 or -(but "-" is a bit far away) you can get a longer pass - that means if there is only one leak to catch, the arrow will fire maybe 7 shots instead of 4 at the target , try that!

Wrath of Zealout currently reads: "Each time this tower attacks, it will gain 4% attack speed. Speed resets after 4 seconds of not attacking. Stops after 60 attacks. " Now Stops after 60 attacks confuses (at least me) a lot. I had to try for myself if it after 60 attacks(16,5 sec); Stops gaining attackspeed, or Stops the effect(resets). Maybe it shall be either "... speed resets after 4 seconds of not attacking or 60 attacks" or maybe "... speed resets after 4 seconds of not attacking. Speed resets after 60 attacks."