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losing single-target slows is a loss to the game.. but at this moment there is no way to fit any single-target slows in without disrupting the 3+8 balance.. ST slow had its place in some builds.. we have 2 builds with 2 aoe slow towers available, 8 with 1 aoe slow available and 5 builds with no aoe slow triples. that is some form of balance there. the next beta all non-support towers, (all towers except the 3+8) should work with well and blacksmith correctly.. this will help to keep the builds more even..

nice idea.. actually i suggested this for me (and others) to catch up on discussions missed.. especially since i'm almost out for the night when the rest of the beta leaders are online.. except.. making the chatlogs so public wouldn't it result in the contents of the beta being leaked to non-beta testers? (if they actually review the logs).. much new content and changes are discussed in irc...

for information, the new gunpowder will retain long range. as far as i know, the longrange concept stays in but may need to be worked on to balance.. instead of just damage, it would have an ability. a projectile hits creep, deals damage, splits into 3, dealing secondary damage (from what i know)..

it's not so bad with pures/periodic, all the slows, voodoo, corrosion etc in play.. and as wordsworth has shown in his vh rnd noleak replay, it is possible to not leak that wave without pures or periodics.. composite healing may well be harder (wave 60) .. leaks at 32 can often be attributed to less than ideal tower selections.. focus on aoe slows and no/less emphasis on single-target towers.. (there are newer threads on this issue so use them instead of digging up old threads..)

this is 4.0 and as we've said we should put away any 3.0 mindsets.. personally i like 13est's design.. it appears that karawasa will be keeping that loadscreen.. unless a new one like snapshots of in-game pics/acknowlegements/credits/tips on the new loadscreen?

yes you are.. i'm still looking for at least the 4th player.. we can start with 4 but i would prefer 5..

pure earth requires 3 picks and essence.. vulcan requires 6 picks.. in builds which support earth and darkness tier3, mortar and vulcan towers are strong towers, often underestimated by many. gunpowder seems weaker but the upgrades are worth it.. the range tends to be not so utilised when main defense is set up at VI V with guns at V apart from being leak catchers.. hence the tower may seem weaker compared to short range towers.. for defenses at III or slower, the range is utilised more.. more so with say corrosion and voodoo.. the guns take advantage of the armour reduction and extra damage throughout the path (after the towers cast their spells)..

nice i must say.. a pretty good 4-ele build and element order as well.. mortar towers are 'in' now seeing how strong they were/could be in the forum draft replays.. consider a plan to do all 15 4-element builds in -TR? that guarantees a 4-element build of your choice when played in single player..

it'll be best to delay this until after the new towers are out at least.. like in a build with strong fire damage, is a poison tower a cover against water waves? towers switching will also invalidate some of the analysis.. with strong towers/damage towers switching elementals/positions... i'll still go ahead with a preliminary analysis.. granted that i can't complete all 15 builds myself, but anyway.. the analysis still can be done (more so in theory).. most likely complete over the weekend..

that would be the ideal.. fair competition for well played 4-5-6 element builds.. although it may be say harder/easier to master certain builds compared to others. but once mastered, they are (almost) equal to each other..

nice. just a question (pardon me if i misread anything). is the orb radius auto or can be controlled by the player?

i've already posted the pre-change list.. in the post just above yours.. it lists the damage types and what towers have that damage type.. just the list with a small bit of analysis at the bottom of the post... .. need to analyse the list in greater detail...

when i used to play standard, i played using human.. seemed the easiest when i started wc3.. didn't do too badly in online 2v2s.. invis mortars/siege tank strats.. and the odd footman (frenzy).. rushing with either footmen or riflemen.. now i hardly play standard.. don't have the micro (as seen in my eletd games as well) .. but once in a long while i create a noob 2v2/3v3 to play for fun..

i use black pearl.. but it's super contrasting when i switch between forums and gamesurge.net/chat.. one is black background and the other is white background..

there are more strong aoe towers than strong single-target towers... in both damage and support...

you'll need both warcraft III and the expansion warcraft III: the frozen throne download the eletd map and put into /warcraft III/maps/download create a custom game and start playing..

currently (before proposed changes) DNEF dark - magic/disease nature - mushroom/roots earth - gunpowder/quaker fire - flame/smith/voodoo/flamethrower DNEL dark - disease/oblivion nature - mushroom/life/roots/enchantment earth - gunpowder light - trickery/quantum/laser DWEF dark - poison/magic/muck water - earth - gunpowder/hydro fire - smith/corrosion/flamethrower/zealot composite - kindle DWEL dark - poison/muck water - ice earth - gp/hydro/polar light - trickery/quark/hail/laser DNEW dark - disease/psn/muck nature - mushroom/roots/golem earth - gp/hydro water - well/drowning LFNE light - electr/quark/nova fire - flame/smith nature - life/mushroom/enchant earth - gold/quaker LFND light - electr/trickery/nova fire - flame/voodoo nature - life dark - magic/disease/jinx/oblivion LWFE light - electr/quark water - ice/windstorm fire - smith/zealot earth - hydro/polar/gold non - kindle LWFD light - electr/trickery/hail water - ice/windstorm fire - corrosion dark - poison/magic/jinx non - kindle LFNW light - elecr/nova fire - flame nature - life/impulse water - ice/well/windstorm/tidal non - kindle LDFE light - trickery/electr/quark/laser dark - magic/jinx earth - gp/gold fire - smith/flamethrower LDWN light - trickery/hail dark - poison/disease/oblivion water - ice/well/tidal/drowning nature - life LWNE light - quark water - ice/well/tidal nature - life/mushroom/enchantment/golem earth - hydro/polar DWFN dark - psn/magic/disease water - well/drowning fire - flame/corrosion/voodoo nature - impulse non - kindle WFNE water - well fire - flame/smith/zealot nature - mushroom/impulse/golem earth - hydro/quaker non - kindle Summary current setup DNEF has 4 fire towers DWEF has 4 fire towers DNEL has 4 nature towers LWNE has 4 nature towers DWEL has 4 light towers LDFE has 4 light towers LFND has 4 dark towers LFNW has 4 water towers LDWN has 4 water towers DNEL has 1 earth tower DWEF has no water towers WFNE has 1 water tower DWEL has 1 water tower LWNE has 1 light tower LFND has 1 nature tower LDWN has 1 nature tower DWFN has 1 nature tower LWFD has 1 fire tower LFNW has 1 fire tower

what about keeping the current jinx, but instead of warping back one creep as it is now, warp a few creeps in a small aoe back? delay would be 2.5/5 with increase in damage when warped back.

Currently: (elemental damage type) light (trickery/electricity/quantum/hail/laser/nova) dark (poison/magic/disease/oblivion/jinx/muck) water (well/Ice/tidal/drowning/windstorm) fire (blacksmith/flame/flamethrower/zealot/voodoo/corrosion) nature (life/mushroom/impulse/golem/enchantment/roots) earth (gunpowder/hydro/gold/quaker/polar) non-elemental - 100% to all (kindle) to balance things out: light (trickery/electricity/quantum/hail/laser/nova) dark (magic/disease/oblivion/jinx/voodoo) water (poison/well/Ice/tidal/drowning/windstorm) fire (kindle/blacksmith/flame/flamethrower/zealot/corrosion) nature (life/mushroom/impulse/golem/enchantment/roots) earth (gunpowder/hydro/gold/quaker/polar/muck) ie: voodoo to dark, muck to earth, kindle to fire, and poison to water this ensures a balance in the elemental damage types and leaves no element too far behind. Earth has no support towers that deal ability damage (polar's damage is it's normal attack, the ability does no direct damage) while fire has 2 in corrosion and voodoo (both the tower's normal attack and ability deals damage) although it remains to be seen in the 4-element builds are the damage types balanced or some builds are unable to cover their weaknesses. (discussed with karawasa in irc)

his replay is 1.22.. whose replays are you referring to? if you're refering to mine, my 4 -vhsrcmsm replays are 1.21b.. i haven't made a new one recently..

playing a strategy with the knowledge that the key towers are going to be nerfed heavily/remade and will not be playable in the next version.. ie, that strategy is just for that version.. you are very likely going to need a totally new build for the next version..

watching this replay kinda makes me feel noob.. with all the games i've played, i never got a vh rnd noleak replay.. and nice 32, killing everything before below II.. one that doesn't fall into the trap of building the aoe slows first before everything else.. i should get used to delaying building some of the aoe slows.. and getting some damage in first.. 56 without pures/periodics.. something that i don't even try but you did it without leaking.. well-played.. fancy coming over to own the forum draft #2?

well.. the only 2 problematic composite waves are 32 and 56.. which gives problem being mech and undead.. 32 being mech demanding single-target towers, where our tendency is building up the aoe slows.. 56 is slightly easier but is a problem without periodic/pures (more so in random mode).. 18 is much easier as overbuilding slightly/partial reloaction (on random mode) does the trick.. now.. this is content i should add to my guide..

well.. we have a trickery that is close to agreeable by all of us.. although that took a long time and several failed attempts to fixing the tower.. and karawasa taking so long to follow through with jolin012's ideas..

future-invalid builds.. i did some of that during b5 knowing that towers would be nerfed.. but it was still gave a base to which the builds are edited and made to work.. and better balancing would mean that ALL 4-element, 5-element and 6-element builds can be completed by a competent player.. it may mean that all builds become harder for the average player though.. can't really say how this will turn out..