The Forum Draft series!

[Kaini]

I hope you sent it holepercent and uploaded it (You may attach in the post too if you want)

You simplay can do with http://rapidshare.com/ (but i hate HATE HATE it).

[Cisz]

WB chris.

Once holepercent has confirmed that he has your replay, we can start posting them here.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

oh. I thought he had already sent it in. well, don't mind me for now *whistles*

Edit - a certain moderator (Cisz) deleted your post, let's hope that the 1 download was not chris.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

^^;

it's ok, there is nothing to be gained from cheating in this contest except for guilt, so I trust everybody.

I want to see results, though! and builds~ I eagerly await...

as for the idea of another draft...this one was interesting, but somehow there was not quite as much room for variety and experimentation in builds as I would have liked. I know the point is to limit your options and work with the few things that you have, but somehow I didn't really play around with different ideas that much. Other than attempting to use gunpowder as a primary source of earth damage.

[Kaini]

A post was deleted? I miss kirbys post with thre replay.

I downloaded it yesterday (nice one , BTW: It is impossible that every key has a tower... there isn't a tower witch beginns with a Y )

[Guest chris]

My Replay:

http://rapidshare.com/files/132286218/Draft-End.w3g.htm

[holepercent]

All 5 replays in!..

i will help all drafters post their replays together with the draft report in first post.

It is impossible that every key has a tower... there isn't a tower witch beginns with a Y

i remember we did have an idea to do something like that but it was scraped as it wasn't worth the attempt short of having nonsensically named towers like beef golem (yes. that was the name at one stage in the betas..)

[holepercent]

Preliminary draft results:

Time and networth are at victory message. Ronald hunt time and loss in networth due to towers build for the ronald hunt are not included.

Drafter/leaks/time/networth/ronalds

chris/50(schooled at 52)/43:50/32500/0

kaini/50(schooled at 56)/48:40/49018/0

Cisz/1/55:20/95275/38 (3/4/2/2)

Jolin012/0/52:18/111926/69 (1/3/1/1)

DDRKirby(ISQ)/1/50:30/129566/60 (3/1/1/1)

5th: Chris

4th: Kaini

3rd: Cisz

T2nd: Jolin012

T1st: DDRKirby(ISQ)

Jolin012 and DDRKirby(ISQ) tied for first place.

Build design review and draft report to follow (probably over the weekend)..

[jolin012]

GG Two winners! (or everyone's a winner for thus who wanna see it that way )

puh, was a bit scary when you(kirby) had posted your replay I didn't dl it but saw the scory, and knew we'd be tied if none of the other players would mess things up, perhaps someone on faster time thatn both us, and I would win, or a spee in the middle of us, and you would win luckily I fell asleep so I didn't need to worry

you did well in gaining more interest and having alower time, grats on that, but I could hold the leak and hold more ronalds even though lower net I saw you had a different build order, but mine fitted me perfectly so I guess our builds are pretty much equaly

And I see you used focused earth tower, I played around with that idea too, but found it better to have only 2 elements of damage (until water comes in play) Earth would take up too much space for it's low dps (due to it's low cost). But well, ya, I guess a few of them would be as good on lv 48.

[holepercent]

The results will stand. Jolin012 and DDRKirby(ISQ) will share the spoils in what has been a memorable first draft. The '-2' rule will not be used..

Draft report in first post, replay download in next post...

[holepercent]

All 5 replays

cisz.w3g

chris.w3g

jolin012.w3g

kaini.w3g

kirby.w3g

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

damn that one leak *laughs*

more comments coming later, I'm d/ling the replays right now. btw I'm surprised I was able to finish in fastest time, I really didn't expect that.

I'll probably watch the replays now (it's morning here) and then write down some commentary later at work from what I remember.

editing with some commentary:

jolin:

wow, you totally burned through those first rounds xD impressive, and your build speed isn't bad either! You took a lot longer starting from about wave 10, but I supposed that makes sense--the later waves you have more money so the interest is more important, whereas early waves you're only getting 1 or 2 gold each time so it's best to just rush through. That's probably one of the reasons I finished faster than you though, because I was setting up at 4 and 2/3 a lot, whereas you moved over to 6 pretty early.

Ah, zealot first, now I see what your plan is. Interesting, but I knew that in my case muck first would probably be better since it would synergize with the rest of my temporary towers, whereas zealot just adds fixed damage. Plus I knew muck+corrosion was a nice combo.

LOL at the mispick, but you managed to save yourself from leaking the lvl 2 elemental, impressive

Wow, so many zealots ^^; I see, I would have thought it would make you weak against water waves but you did just fine. And IIRC you had pure water against the watery minions, so it worked out. BTW I don't know if you needed to spend so much at the end on round 60. If you had saved you would have had more networth, since it decreases with each tower you build (right?)

I definitely like your muck/corrosion placement, though I would have put the ones at 6 a little bit higher I think. Overall your strategy was very solid of course, though at the end you had a bunch of zealot towers that were a little bit of dead weight compared to the fanatic towers, and not enough forge towers. I lol'ed at the arrow towers at the end, why not at least build another blacksmith or two, that would actually do something? ^^

Cisz:

Ah yes, shame that you had to open at 6 =(, I wouldn't have expected that from you, but I guess it's because you don't interest abuse like us. Still, you played a very solid and "clean" game just like I expected you to. Except I don't quite understand the zealots at 9, and I would have spread the muck towers out along the path more, especially since you're using gunpowder. Haha, Cisz for some reason always seems to do the same but uses half as many towers as everybody else. The only other thing I have to say is...gunpowder sux! X_X I suppose if you're having the creeps travel all the way across the map, then it's not so bad, but still. Also, you had some minor boo-boo's at the end there deciding which towers to build. hehe.

kaini:

Not too bad~

You managed to catch a lot of leaks at 9 but...wouldn't it be better if you had played your entire game a little slower and not had to catch any leaks at all?

Also, gunpowder sux! xD and You are right to be scared of shredders. Notice how I frantically build 10 gazillion towers during that round

Overall a valiant attempt to play at 4, but I don't know if it's possible with that build. Interesting that you decided to go for light--as you can see, neither Cisz, jolin, or I did. I think that gunpowder didn't really synergize with your build. Yes, it helped you catch some leaks, but since you were playing at 4, a lot of the time the full effect of the gunpowder's range didn't hold.

chris:

Replay in wrong folder! xD

so, as punishment, you have to wait until after I get back from work for me to review your game. =p

--ok--

well, it was a nice try. But you cannot, cannot rely on arrow towers so late into the game. It's simply pointless to try, even if you build 100 of them.

Also, try to avoid selling towers at all costs in AP, unless you really, really know what you are doing.

[jolin012]

damn that one leak *laughs*

hehe, ya, and my no leak game was, except the leak, rather bad overall, so I put it the same way, "damn the leak on my other tries" and "damn the suckyness of this try" hehe:p I could finish it faster on other games (even counting the time it takes to leak o_O)

more comments coming later, I'm d/ling the replays right now. btw I'm surprised I was able to finish in fastest time, I really didn't expect that.

Hehe, I wa aiming for a fast game as possible, with a high net/Ron too, no leak.. um that doesn't sound like only my startegy, anyhow, the speed net and ronald sort of failed:p although I'm surpriced I got so much more ronald on a lower net.

jolin:

wow, you totally burned through those first rounds xD impressive, and your build speed isn't bad either! You took a lot longer starting from about wave 10, but I supposed that makes sense--the later waves you have more money so the interest is more important, whereas early waves you're only getting 1 or 2 gold each time so it's best to just rush through. That's probably one of the reasons I finished faster than you though, because I was setting up at 4 and 2/3 a lot, whereas you moved over to 6 pretty early.

Yeah, while lv 1-10 both gives very little gold (okok, all gold will give gold out of it aka, the rich gets richer, but still I thougth this had a smaller differance, aka, not worth the time it takes. Ontop of that lv 1-10 doesn't have $$. As soon as $$ were awarded, I started farming interest. I wasnted to spend some time with that, because I thought that if I would use the most effective levels to spend my time farming interest that would give enough gold to SPEED Through from perhaps lvl 40/45 and on. So I decided I should farm from 10-25 and use one Zealout at location 3 (most cash unspent and slowest possible zealout placemnt, you're right, much can go at a slower placement, maybe the muck at 6 I use should've been my first tower, but then again No, Cause I sort of need 2 triples for lvl 29 and 30(and 2 mucks are not in the build yet but 2 zealouts are needed for lv 32), (unless mass cannons/arrows ontop of one muck and magic work, that might be to be tested)

Ah, zealot first, now I see what your plan is. Interesting, but I knew that in my case muck first would probably be better since it would synergize with the rest of my temporary towers

hm, if I watch your replay I might see what I just meantioned muck+temporary huh? for an even slower placement? else there's no reason in the temporary placement, they make so MUCH less dpspg that even though you do sell and rebuild them that shouldn't work out well unless what you're aiming for is a placement as slow as possible as these levels are the ones you have your best chance to farm interest

LOL at the mispick, but you managed to save yourself from leaking the lvl 2 elemental, impressive

Yeah, that wasn't a major problem, the major problem was that I had to overbuild and reach a pathetic networth(also due to really sucky interest farmng lv 10-25) that wouldn't allow on my relocation to area 7 around lv 45

Wow, so many zealots ^^; I see, I would have thought it would make you weak against water waves but you did just fine. And IIRC you had pure water against the watery minions, so it worked out.

Yeah, I had around 25% of my defense to darkness damage when there was a water wave in play, that's how it should be with 2 damage elements. Although it doesn't matter how much fire I have until water actually arrives;) and when Pure water came Water was no longer a problem ofcourse.

BTW I don't know if you needed to spend so much at the end on round 60. If you had saved you would have had more networth, since it decreases with each tower you build (right?)

I just realized how dumb I was to overbuild on 60 yes Networth is better unbuilt. But in the other hand I needed a good time too;)

I definitely like your muck/corrosion placement, though I would have put the ones at 6 a little bit higher I think. Overall your strategy was very solid of course,

Thanks Yes, It was rather safe tactics, ofcourse a leak could occur in early game, and the biggest problem was not farming interest good enough early game. The muck and corrosion a bit higher, hm, perhaps. Don't remember exactly right now but I know it should be as high as it doesn't chose targets further away than the damage towers and the effects should not end before creeps reach the damage towers. Additional muck and corrosion at 2 were used to extend the times throughout area 3, 2 and 1 and also to put the effects on the 2nd pass

though at the end you had a bunch of zealot towers that were a little bit of dead weight compared to the fanatic towers, and not enough forge towers. I lol'ed at the arrow towers at the end, why not at least build another blacksmith or two, that would actually do something? ^^

You're right, I should've sold the zealouts and upgraded some to fanatic, that should make +/-0 but force forges to target better. um, Why I sold some forges I do not exactly remember. I think I wanted to finish the game faster, as the current buffs would stay on anyway x)

Looking forward to watch your replay soon Kirby

During my comments I talk alot about "I farmed too little interest during 10 and 25" and I should've relocated and speeded by lvl 45 to reach a better time, net and ronald (the net was not due to the reloc ofc:p, but due to the plan to reloc)

What I mean is featured in around my 12th (althoguh it's named 16th lol, I didn't really keep track) try, where I do relocate to area 7 somewhere around 45. I was aiming for this in the no leak too, but I think it was cause I farmed too bad that I got the shitty networth. I think the time spent to get the better networth is worth, because it's given back between lv 45 and 60. I'm attaching my 12th try here:

GG

Draft attempt 16.w3g

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

Ah, zealot first, now I see what your plan is. Interesting, but I knew that in my case muck first would probably be better since it would synergize with the rest of my temporary towers

hm, if I watch your replay I might see what I just meantioned muck+temporary huh? for an even slower placement? else there's no reason in the temporary placement, they make so MUCH less dpspg that even though you do sell and rebuild them that shouldn't work out well unless what you're aiming for is a placement as slow as possible as these levels are the ones you have your best chance to farm interest

Oh yes, muck + temporary towers is less damage per second of course, but my mindset in this case was not really thinking about SPEED as much as you were. Now that you explain it, it makes sense what you're saying though, definitely. The slow doesn't really matter as much as I am thinking it does because I could have just built my temporary towers in different places anyways. So, you are totally correct. *bow*

Also, to reposition at 7, that is very ambitious of you! I'm at work now so I can't watch the replay, but I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

And, it gave me a good laugh to read your plan, "I was aiming for a fast game as possible, with a high net/Ron too, no leak"

zealot/fanatic IMHO works very well against ronalds, whereas focused earth definitely does NOT. I'm sure you would understand why, but for those who don't, it's because earth is splash damage, and ronalds are never really that clumped up...and on the other hand, zealot is single target damage, and even better, since there is a constant stream of ronalds, the zealots never have a break in firing and so they maintain full efficiency. I think this is why you had more ronalds than I did (besides other factors like, my placement was not as good).

====

with the result of this draft I finally feel confident enough to go out and say that I am one of the top players here. Though I already of course had some inner suspicions of this before, I knew that the only thing that I had really proven myself in was ronald hunt, which was good but I didn't feel like it "covered all the bases" so to speak. All I was certain of before is that I build really really fast (and I think by now everyone else knows this as well xD).

Though, in a multiplayer game, let me assure you I don't think I could keep up with cisz and jolin, they have played too many

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

@ jolin I just thought about it again, what I meant to say about the muck tower first, is that, since muck clumps the creeps up, it makes cannon towers more effective. Plus I knew muck was just an overall good tower. Your point is still valid in that zealot is probably more dps (you know this better than I do) but that was what I was thinking--that the muck would increase the dps of the temporary cannon towers.

[jolin012]

heh, ye, gg, I will watch yours too, as soon as I get time, but I'm going to gothenburg now, though only for a day, and yes, I'd say you're one of the best around here in singleplayer.

and that fastest game that'd also include a good net/ron and no leak could actually happen I think, if my game 16 is done perfectly. Although I never checked it again after doing it, so I don't know the time, and it'd be lower without leak(but less interest) too. All I know is that I have like 400k and I think I still have a lower time than all the replays that were sent in.

(and yes, you've got all current ronald records under 13ests current conditions, under the older, cisz has hunted most ronalds Also, I was planning to beat all the new records but I'm just not patient enough, I give everything 2 tries, then it's boring, so I quit. Draft was exception cause I couldn't accept a loss ofcourse I have the ronald masterplans done allready for pick, but unfortunatelly I'd never use em, just like the old speed recrod that I claimed I would be. Cisz quote "replay or it didn't happen" fits in most cases )

Although as I see it, eletd is a competitive game, and building quick isn't always enough for that:p Why don't you learn it? Can't play online? Try challanging holepercent if you do and can play online

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

i can play online, but i guess can't be bothered to actively look for games. Cisz and crew play on a different server (I'm on USWest). Holepercent hosts weekly games but since he's GMT +8 and I'm -7, the time difference means I'd have to wake up and play at 6:00 AM on a Saturday morning or something o_o;

when I said fastest game that also included no leak, ronalds, networth, I was just laughing because that was my "plan" too. I guess you meant something a little different though, you meant that you wanted speed but didn't want to sacrifice leaks, etc. I thought it was funny, "well I want to do good in all categories..." that's all =PP

When you say older Ronald Hunt conditions, do you mean back when all element builds were allowed for AP? I would have tried to do that as well but I was working on the SR records first (I felt more more confident in those because I knew my build speed would come in handy and SR for me is more exciting anyways, AP is a little stale toward the end because you can't interest farm), and by the time I got those the AP rules had changed, so I just did it under the new rules.

If I get motivated to start playing more eleTD I guess I can at least just host one game every week at a set time or something, on USWest. Seems like there are other players than me here who play on West, actually, so maybe there will be forum players and not just "build random towers at random places" newbies. =p If I end up doing it I'll start a forum topic for it.

I haven't played that much at all recently actually, but the forum draft was a good inspiration. I never really try playing for speed too much, but in some of my more recent games I've started trying to go out of my "comfort zone" and play at 4 + 5 instead of down at 3, since that is needed to keep up with you guys.

But yea, the multiplayer just seems too much trouble, I wish there were a good and simple way to organize games amongst ourselves, I've seen various ideas tossed around like a vent channel or ggc but it all just baffles me.

[Cisz]

Hey kirby, you are right - jolin and you are a bit better at farming than I am, but I wouldn't be as bad as in this draft if I would have a faster refresh for my cursor position than once every 0.5 seconds. If I don't manage to place the curser right without seeing where it is, I usually either can't rebuild fast enough or have to use whatever placement I accidently pointed at.

Wish me luck on fast mainboard delivery, and I'll join you on us-west. It can't be as bad as this comp.

About my replay:

The two zealots on the upper corner were a deliberate overbuild for a wave I could not stop (45, composite). I tried to spent my whole cash in arrows and still leaked like 3 times in a row, with zero gold left. So my only hope was to build additional elemental towers. I was awake for about 20h at that point, so maybe they would have been better at 3.

And no Sir, mortar sucks not. Focused earth has a dmg/gold/sec of 1.48 with a splash of 350, while mortar has a dmg/gold/sec of 2.275 and a splash of 300. So ask yourself: Does 17% more splash size outperform 53% more damage? And the long range on top of that? I tried different versions and mortar helps a lot with light. It is ofc much harder to get, as you have to level twice the elements, so it is only fair for it to own so hard.

For your replay, nice job man.

I have two small suggestions for you, and you'll go "d'oh" when I tell you the second one:

1.) This is just an opinion: Maybe the zealots would have been better more to the right. Often only two of them could fire, as the creeps were allready round the bend, and imo the best thing about 3 is the long second pass, which you kind of negated with zealots at 2. You could argue that if they all die before they reach the bend, your version is faster, but as far as I remember, you have to wait for the last zealots to do the job so often, that the overall time would have gone down with zealots to the right. And no, afaik the zealots wouldn't have lost buff there, or only on pretty easy waves.

2.) I believe your corrosion usage can be improved: Corrosion and hydrochloric don't stack, and whatever is applied last overrides the older acid debuff. So keeping a corrosion between your two hydrochlorics reduced your armour reduction. I would guess you lost about 1/3 of your debuff power there. Have a look for yourself: Pause the replay when the creeps are under fire and check the acid level on them. Many of them have level 1 only, right? Imo it's better to either upgrade the middle one before the upper one, or sell the middle one. (The upper one allready sucks a bit since it can't do full dot on the second pass, as the creeps leave the map before it runs out.)

Even watching replays suck on this comp, 3 x speed lags so bad, I can't even properly strafe the camera. So I will take my time to do you all justice. And yes, shame on chris for not obeying to the replay rules. A forum rule enforcement commando has been sent to your house to withdraw and annex any and all yoghurt and/or curd related provisions. Let that be a warning to you.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

haha, well it's good to learn a few things here and there, even if some of them make me *facepalm* a little.

Yea I can't even imagine playing like that. With my style especially, there's no way I could use a computer like that xD

Ah so the zealots were for spirit of vengeance specifically, I see. Yeah, arrows won't help at all for something like round 45, it's pointless to even try and tbh I see it as just wasting interest. The most you can do with arrows at that point in the game is to catch a single leak or two, and even then only if you have the right element.

Mortar may not suck. Gunpowder I find to be lacking. Of course maybe it is just my imagination. I haven't done any of the math. I can't believe Mortar is more damage/gold/sec than even focused earth though. Intuitively I would expect it to be less, since the long range makes up for it. Well, that's certainly useful to know. Maybe I'll do the math for gunpowder and see how that stacks up.

Corrosion, hahaha that's a good laugh xD. The upper one was kind of meant to be a short pass...I never planned to have the creeps travel up to 9. Like I noted before, the placement of my muck and corrosion could definitely be better. I experimented with a few things. It's tricky to find a placement that works--more importantly, to PLAN AHEAD for a placement that works when you consider all the other towers to be built. Ideally I'd have one on each end of the main defense, like one at 6 and one at 2/3, and =maybe= one at 5 or 4. Corrosion is an interesting tower since it's not just armor debuff, it's also DoT. So that was neat to think about. Also in conjunction with muck...it's just an interesting placement problem.

As for the zealots, that makes sense. I was mainly worried that they would reset speed if I put them too far to the right. Normally I think you're right that they wouldn't have reset, but it depends on my muck placement, which again I was trying different things with. I think once I had a muck closer to 2 than this time, so I noticed the zealots were resetting, which is a definite no-no. I do really love the long second pass at 3 though. ^^

[holepercent]

ah. kirby beat me to the replay analysis...

many placement lessons can indeed be learnt from the draft.

Try challanging holepercent if you do and can play online

i'll probably lose with a much slower build speed and little interest abuse. i mean i do sell and rebuild for interest but not much. Only difference could be playing at IV V or VII (as in my 4th game) as opposed to III. It's true to say i haven't really been decently challenged unlike cisz and jolin. By wave 30, i'm the last survivor in most fullhouse games.

with the result of this draft I finally feel confident enough to go out and say that I am one of the top players here

seconded. at least in singleplayer and the ronald hunt. fullhouse multiplayer can't really say yet as i haven't seen much of this.

If I end up doing it I'll start a forum topic for it.

there is one thread named the official eletd player finder but it's hardly used.. few if any posted their server and time online there

I've started trying to go out of my "comfort zone" and play at 4 + 5 instead of down at 3, since that is needed to keep up with you guys.

that's good. Most of us (myself, cisz, jolin) all play at IV V or sometimes even up to VII, VIII and the odd attempt at / ..

When you say older Ronald Hunt conditions, do you mean back when all element builds were allowed for AP?

he could be referring to that but also the old 3.0 reconds where cisz hunted 60k or something ronalds..

But yea, the multiplayer just seems too much trouble, I wish there were a good and simple way to organize games amongst ourselves,

use the irc channel more. we do organise games among ourselves starting in there. although it would have me going over to northend to play with a 3sec lag unless i'm host in which the rest will have the 3sec lag.. if not just create a game on bnet and i'll sure it'll fill up quite fast (as my games do) but don't expect any standard in the gameplay.. some can leak first wave or wave 16 (short mode) and almost all are schooled in 15 waves..

and i realised the forum draft topic featured something not seen in most other threads. posts with paragraphs of text. everyone suddenly became typists? j/k.. can see that the draft brough up many interesting points to discuss..

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

haha, i do long posts, but only when it's a topic that sparks interest.

Ok, i'll hop on the IRC more often from now on. Yea I made the player finder topic in an effort to see if enough players were around the same timezone to allow for me to host games and have a good turnout, but whatever.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

ok, who can recommend me a good (free) IRC client? The java one doesn't like me and I'd much rather prefer to have something dedicated.

[Cisz]

I use trillian, it's free unlike mirc, and it's not great but ok.

And this is totally offtopic.

[WordsWorth]

IRC isnt even free these days anymore? What a sad internets we live in

[Cisz]

Irc is free, mirc is not. Mirc is an irc client that costs 50 bucks.