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You mean it is not functional ... YET don't you?

Same here. I'm oficially getting headache and we are moving in circles. We have 2 reliable options "extra interest for VE" and "full creep amount for VE", it is certain that we will give all diff. 70 starting gold. We got "average diff." and "minor delay apliable" for in-between round delays as alternatives. As no constructive posts are coming up from somebody else I'll let the decision to Karawasa and leave this thread as done.

The problem is not earlygame, its lategame, a easy player just doesnt has the cash to survive being a player without good strat knowledge. Adding creeps makes the game give a Easydiff-player the same advantage during all the game. It makes the game be permanently easier. We just have to work out the details, hopefully soon.

Wow, incredible work PaperEye, you may include 2 more things. after ...to build better towers, you need to kill more guardians. Include that you first have to kill a minor elemental to be able to summon a major one of the same element, each one being stronger than the precedent you summoned, up to a very strong 3rd summoning. after ...Plus the Popular RANDOM Mode: Include the CHAOS mode which makes each wave unpredictible. (No more comments as there will be big differences in this mode between 3.0 and 4.0) Amazing job so far. Thanks.

@1mpulse: Well, i wanted to have the actual tower-query, element query and Tip skills/spells be somewhere different than the 6 element-waves-query, to avoid ppl, specially newcommers to get confused with all the stuff. @Jolin012: If you dont type in the chat box, nobody will see that you are querying. It would work like the tower-query or the element-query or the tips, you're the only one who sees them.

Thats absolutely true, if the spell is not applying damage each second, the skill will be wortless and sooner or later be axed, then it doesnt matter anymore if it is likely to go wrong or not. Is there any solution to have the skill be applied to incoming damage every second without troubling?

@Jolin012: I didn't meant to change anything, i'm just sugesting to add and aditional and visible way to use some of the commands, it's an extra. Ppl mostly don't read F9 and take very long to find out that they can easily see when the next element X wave comes. I almost never see ppl use it in random b-net games. This may encourages more to use this commands. As well, doing one click is faster than opening the chat box, writing and pressing enter (i'm one of those guys who misspells things often and get bored of rewriting things twice).

I actually think that we have redesigned to better undead and machanical waves, but what about fast waves? Aren't fast waves a bit easy compared to their big bro's healing and undead waves? Here's my purposal. What if fast creeps would run like chikens if they are below 20% life? Basically, as soon as a fast creep is below 20% life he will attempt to reach the exit at max speed, which can be a pretty bitch to cath leaks on fast waves. It also breaks a bit the order of the creeps. Thoughts?

Isn't it strange that we are spending wood/lumber at the summoning center? Shouldnt we rename the lumber and make it be summoning points or something else? As well, we should change the descriptions of both, gold and lumber (if you pass with the cursor over gold or lumber during a game you get wrong descriptions like "gold is earned by mining..." and "wood is gained by chopping trees...". Just some random issues.

I had an idea, why dont we give the builders a inventory with 6 slots and give the builder 6 items, each one representing an element and make the item on click do the same function like -light, -fire, -water... chats. I know it repetitive, but it may encourage newcommers to use this features. At least we can write in the item description that a chat with -light, -fire,... will do the same.

Alright sancdar. Finishing speculation I just checked how long a creep stays in the line of sight of towers on 3 and on 6. The last creep of the row toke 18 secs to move from the moment he started being targeted by three arrow towers on 3 (bottom right) to the point he got out of range on the 2nd pass. For location 6 (mid right) it was 21 secs. So, basically the VE timer should be close to 21 secs for VE players. So, Karawasa's 20/16/12/8/4 is more realistic than my 17/13/10/7/4. But anyway, I think that building on 6 on multiplayer is pretty risky, doesn't matter the way you look at it. And btw, VE has to be jus that, Very Easy, its for beginners (a noob will always find a way to die before wave 5), for ppl that has no clue of any strats and plays multi to watch other ppls strategies. We just have to make it hard for pushers to exploit that gamemode. I'm really interested in more opinions. Don't be afraid of posting. Thoughts anybody?

The "minor delay apliable" effect will affect specially VE players, which will notice a faster game playing a mixed multi then playing solo. It will not affect VH players as they will in most cases cut the counter. The good thing is that VH players can play on multi competing against each other nearly ignoring the presence of VE players. Normal dif players should not notice much of a difference. It is not my intention to make the counter longer. Too long timing makes the game on solo horribly easier, and too short timing makes it easy to spam on multi, the core problem is still the same. Comparing the "average" option and my suggested "minor delay apliable" option, I prefer my one becase "average" would make the game easier for VH players and it is imo out of question to make the game easier for anyone on multi. The game will get a bit harder for VE players but right now they will have more money as well, it would compensate a bit. Lets go again to the core problem. With the same amount of creeps and the same amount of gold, building the same amount of towers a the same placement, how much faster will a VE player be able to clear before a VH player does? Not much. The key is that a VE player needs less towers and can potentially get more money which ends up in having stronger towers than a VH player. Considering that: - Building on fast locations is a legitime way to push other players - A VE player will have better towers than a VH player - VH spawns have double hp and about 33% damage reduction due to extra armor (total ratio: take 266% more damage before killed) - Nobody forces you to play VH on multi, specially knowing that you will get the same bounty How much extra time should be considered to adjust your disadvantage as a VH player? I think 10-12 seconds difference between VE-VH timer should be enough, and the timing should be about VHtime = VEtime x 2,66 So, 4/7/10/13/17 should still be fair. Finally and in short, on multiplayer you should choose a difficulty that fits with your skills on money administration and interest looting, the way we are implementing the values, this will be 100% true. If you get spammed on VH on 4.0 its because you are misadministrating your resources somewere and your build is growing too weak.

I think I got a better idea instead of using average difficulty for in-between-round delay. How about "minor delay apliable"? I explain myself: If a VE player in a major group finishes cleaning his area on a certain wave, the counter starts, 21 secs delay to next wave. 3 seconds later (trigger timer is at 18 secs left), a VH player clears his area. If he would be first, a 5 second delay would start. The delays are compared, and if the remaining time of the old timer (18 secs in our case) is bigger than the new one (generated by our VH player, which has right now a remaining time of 5 secs), the timer will be set to the lowest possible (in this case it's the new one with 5 secs remaining). (Not sure if VE=21 secs and VH=5 secs, correct me if i'm wrong) No VE spamming, no boring waiting for VH players. It's the ultimative solution for the between-wave-delay issue. I hope you understand what im proposing, if not, let me know and i'll try to explain it better. Thoughts?

It does not show which creeps are being toasted, i hope we can fix it for the next beta. The way it was on 3.0 was pretty ok, you could see the creeps BURN At least, everyboy wants to know when the murlock flesh is ready to make it to a juicy sandwich

I dont like the actual voodoo and jinx towers eighter, its 1 too hard to see its efect 2 too hard to remember the elements they are made from 3 too complex skills 4 jinx depends on luck, voodoo will affect already dead creeps i'm for axing the actual tower concepts and think about something new.

Polar sounds to me like a slow attacking tower with splash. Why dont we half the attack speed but make each attack to affect 3 creeps, the attacked, the previous one and the next one. All affected by frostbite that drops hp for 3 secs.

I've got one of those strange ideas. Imagine the mine tower is a real mine, there is a bunch of goblins mining inside, melting coins and throwing them just for fun to the mobs. 1. The tower (mine) starts with a certain amount of gold in it, lets say 1750 gold (mana, could be equal to its total cost), the selling price of the tower is equal to remaining gold(mana)/max gold (max mana) x 0,75 (on pick, x1 on random) 2. The mine loses gold each time it attacks (mana), if the mine runs out of gold it will be destroyed (as it is worth 0 gold). You can replenish the mine with gold using a skill (can be an autoskill), the amount of money spended will be taken from your real money. So, the tower works AT THE COST OF YOUR MONEY. 3. The tower increases bounty, a way so that with a lvl1 gold mine you make profit (money earned by bounty increase-money invested in attack) starting on wave 45, and for the lvl 2 gold mine, starting at wave 30. The concept is that massing the tower too early can ruin you, but after a certain moment late game you start getting substantial profit like the old gold mine did. You have to mass a bit because if the tower is not doing any final blow, you will only run the costs without getting any profit by extra bounties. 4. The money tower upgrades its attack each time it has spended all its maximum gold (if each attack costs 10 gold and the tower maxgold is 1750, the tower upgrades after 175 attacks), each upgrade will increase damage AND cost by 66%. 6 upgrades in total. (this is to avoid the tower have to hit a creep 20 times to achieve a kill lategame, and to avoid micro abuse a bit). We could use the towers health instead of mana for the amount of current gold stack, I suggested mana because i'm not sure if it would work using the tower healthpoints.

I already posted once my competitive TD concept, ill post it again because i think it was a good idea. How about have tripples be able to transform into an offensive tower. Each tripple tower has an unique offensive form with a skill related to its defensive form or its elements. Transformed towers stop attacking, being not able to defend you from your creeps for a while (maybe 40 secs cooldown to transform back to original) but gain a skill to offensively attack another player or buff the creeps of another player. Whats interesting on this is that you have to plan smarter your elements to be able to compete, making the competitive mode much different to play than normal mode (some bad triple towers on normal can have strong skills in offensive form in competitive mode). As well, you need to time your towers better so that you can profit from offensive skills as soon as you face a wave you know you won't leak. I like as well the point that if you transform too many towers to offensive, the transformskill-cd may make you leak. So, its risky to compete, you always need to know how far you can bet on offensive.

Yes we do need a gamemode that has no delay between clearing and starting of the next wave. I just think that it has to be a gamemode that should ONLY be applied if all players play the same difficulty.

I agree to sancdar, it should not be possible to exploit interest by leaving single creeps to leak and rewalk the area, it should be implemented in all gamemodes that leaking sets timer for next round as well as clearing, VE players will anyway get a good couple of seconds to clear the leaks. Lets say on multi a good player uses slow and a noob does not, do you really think a noob will leak before a good player is capable of finishing his wave? I dont think so, so there is no good reason not to implement timer activation on leaks imo. As well, a situation in multi in which all players leak in the same wave is not that common, implementing it will not make such a difference except for single games.

That's an absolutely great idea Kara, i'll try it right away

Hi and first of all welcome to the forum cohadar. Is that onDamage system going to make it possible that skill/ability-damage will be affected by armor type of the attacked unit and the game difficulty? (Maybe this point is already solved, I dont remember right now, but I remember that most skills of 3.0 where armor ignoring and didnt take into consideration the game difficulties armor increase)

Thats why kara included this pop-under beast before you enter the forum, if the site would get more visits i wouldn't be necesary to include it, but with the actual visits, its like clicking an AD each time you visit the forum. I just detest those pop ups that open a new window or stay in your sight field untill you find the way to close them. You can easily skip the pop-under by pressing the button top right. If its all 24 hours it is in my opinion not nice but acceptable, you get used after entering 5+ times to the forum. I just cant stand it when you get litterally bombarded by stuff that appears on all sides and makes hateful sounds when it appears just to let you know your being spammed.

ADvertisement It's what balances the cost of maintaining the etd site, the more people who sees the advertisement the more $ you get for having it in your site, and you get a bonu$ for each visitor that clik$ to be redirected to the AD's site. Its the only way to survive in this electronic jungle. Ontopic, I don't care as long as no popups or other bothersome stuff appears, at least it's for the sake of long term financing the site.

Sancdar, i'm sorry but you're imho wrong, no offense. Increased interest is not such a good option, those ones who profit the most from interest are pro's, increasing interest means therefor that VE is more exploitable by good microers, so we will have to adjust the round to round delay anyway. If we have to take the risk to rework and probably increase the round to round delay to avoid spamming, i consider much more suitable to have all players get the same creeps than to write noobs 20 times in big bold letters that there is a bonus for unspent money. As well, if VE has 5% interest, who stops a pro from getting millionaire by wave 40 and build the whole area full of towers (remember that it will be the pro on VE the first finishing and will make all other players wait for 30 secs to next round, pharming all the way). The necessary delay to compensate the change is bigger going for the b option (interest) than for the a option (increase spawning number), and on top it is harder to balance (like i.ex. making senseless getting a interest pick). I would only try to adjust interest if by any reason it does not work to readjust the spawning number.