electronX

Greetings! It is long time since I last posted on these forums, nice to see them renewed. I see that you have greater plans with EleTD and as such, 4.2 is likely one of, or the last branch using War3. (Seeing the amount of DotA games on Northrend-Europe, I don't think W3 is dead on its own.) I was taking a huge break from EleTD and came back to play lately, and the last few days I spent a few hours online, playing thanks to GamersEdge bots. I have some experiences now that concern me, and I think it's better to share them. When playing alone, I usually pick hard. I'm not that awesome, I often lose the trail around the end of the forties, especially as I prefer random play. (1) Playing online, most players choose the Very Easy difficulty. This would not be a real problem if they would be newbies, noobs, but often they aren't. As I felt ashamed to get annihilated around my usual levels, I am chosing Normal level now, which makes me more competitive. I feel the reasoning behind Normal is, that players try to pursue high Ronald and of course win the game, and easier modes by definition offer an advantage. I remember I voted for this system myself in the past in favour of allowing different skilled people to play together, yet now I feel its bad side. (2) Very easy difficulty allow players to nuke every level down as a single pass around position 7, falling back to a long pass in case of some problems, like an immunity level. Chosing harder difficulties doesn't allow for such fast nuking, especially as easier levels allow for less towers early on, thus more money, which can be well spent on even more powerful towers later. (3) The successful - and quite boring - nuking of the very easy players result in constant 20+ second wait times between levels. I see no way to pressure them. (4) Probably as a result of 1-3, the new LFW (looking for work?) easymode build of version 4 is born: LN, life towers. Most pressuring players are successfully using life towers exclusively and very successfully. They tend to defeat waves just about the time when I kill my 3rd mob out of 30 at my position 4-5 placement. Life has an excellent range to patch placement 7 into a double pass location, which extended to 4, 5, 8, 2 is just pure awesome. A guy just before picked IIINLNLNLPP, ended up with a net worth of 800k, fully built his map with life towers, killed 300 and some Ronalds. This altogether makes these games (the game instances) very boring, and disappointing. I would love to race for fun, improve to lessen the gap from the better players, but when I check their territory after my defeat it's always the same: Very Easy with Soul Catchers. Seeing how easy it is to "master" this game online, it lifts all my motivation to go again. I saw that there are responses for all these points alone. Playing VE means you're a nab, Life isn't good for competitive play or Ronalds, but life proves it the other way around. What do you think? Was this expected? Is there any potential treatment incoming? EDIT: and one thing I consider a bug. If the host choses Short Mode and All Pick, it is practically impossible to go -random.

Today I have built an abomination tower (as I got NEW rolled) and discovered it is sending the meat, but no creep health was dropped. Normal attack damage reports 1-1. To be tested & verified yet.

Kindle can solo hard till about 18; many triples till much later. Flame is (was) unable not because it is weak, but because it often enflamed creeps with lower health and then those with higher (or simply with luck) walked over. It's just like Quaker: if it stomps often / lucky, it can solo till very late, if it doesn't, it can fail like level 20. Of course if we are talking about high levels, it is rather true.

Must test it, I agree. Earlier only 2 (or 3) could be built of these towers, so being overpowered was a good balance. This tower could not do a no-leak after all, because of some of its logics. Now it's stacked. Since it is the same as corrosion including AoE DoT, I'd just compare their price & dps ratio. (Corrosion is unstacking at the moment, right? I only build 2 of them as well, 4 & 6.)

I'm content with Quaker. It is good to be spammed since the 20% damage is a bit low to make no-leaking sure. ^^ But when spammed, I get more than excellent results. I always use this tower at 2, 4, 6 plus on the top edge of 5 (as 500 range makes it a long pass in corners). Probably a slight increase to 550 wouldn't hurt (as range 500 means that building it on the left side of 6 will barely hurt creeps on the right side so I always end up 1-pass).

The Ronald system introduced in the first post would not balance but make differences even larger. Say, you're fast and kill all the 30 ronalds while the others kill no one (say you have tons of pures, whatever). Then you will only be spawn 1 ronald for 1 average kill of everyone (who are very slow at the moment as their damage is even more spread along ronalds), while you will only have 2-3 ronalds running around. Just build 5 pure natures at pos 784, somewhere around. You will never have more than 2. Of course this is not likely soon, but, as soon as your Ronald count tends to go down, you will have more concentrated damage, less leaks. It may even happen that you run out of ronalds (you kill your last, the opponent does not, and dies leaking) and your game never ends. This would prefer players who are able to kill more Ronalds quickly (i.e. who have high tier towers). However, I could agree with a solution like this one. If any player's Ronald count gets under 30, 1 ronald is spawned to everyone. So the fastest still has the minimum count but the others can get spammed (and enjoy AoE).

This is not that bad, after all. This happens mostly because of the excess. If I need to get down a level with darkness, I simply build 4-5 of them instead of amplifying one. Then excess gets low (if they are also built spread). At level 16, when elemental towers start to come in play, amplified / more normal is already needed.

Technically I see no reason for excluding a vote on how much levels do you want - 60, 75, 90? Especially since there are two short modes, so a 31-90 game would also last about an hour. The harder thing is the health limit of creeps (1 million). Level 90 would surely be higher so all towers would need a downscale. Not a hard job, Blizzard TD starts with a tower doing 2-3 damage. I don't vote for further upgraded towers, though. When I support longer games I think on having more elementals (and harder game as a compensation) to build up. Most players experience high tier towers once or twice in their whole life.

Darkness deserves higher dps than Light. Darkness range is 1100 (quite new), Light is 1500. Darkness does higher one-shot, what means more excess. (Say, it is (almost?) impossible to defeat a whole wave with one darkness tower. It is with light.)

Support as it is? Maybe. I usually built normal golems and put only 1 or 2 to link. I realized that buffed shots do 6000 damage while normal golems do 4000 and buffers don't attack. Two normals would have done 8000. I also don't know what 1 second is in the game and how fast towers are attack wise. Link mode also doesn't tell me which tower is helped. Random? 26 golems are 40K gold, but even 10 are 15K. That is level 40 and above. I'm unlikely to rebuild my whole towers between levels that late. For me that means instant mass leaking. If golems could boost *any* tower then I might use it as a supporting tower. (As it buffs towers with *my* chosen damage kind and not only nature. Otherwise I still not understand, why to build an expensive tower to add relatively low damage to the attack of another.) The trick is the exponential, but I never put both sides into an ln() to find the point where it starts to be worth.

Magic: The tooltip says "fire up changes the cooldown". I never realized it being buffed by BS, might just have missed it. Flamethrower: I vote for the change. The kaboom-effect doesn't scale with the level nor stack, so at early levels it is way too über (30 creeps die at the same moment), at later levels it is simply nothing while the damage itself is still bad. At early levels I tend to build it, later on I sell it. FDE contains FD which is excellent, as well as DE.

Thanks. Jinx is cool, though I only use one of that (at P5), otherwise I feel that ineffective. Quaker is nice, but sometimes the AoE is not working for me (placement for sure). Does it come from the tower, like nova? Is its range 500? Then it is the best in corners' inner spot (say, upper P5). I like Impulse ^^ How much tidal do you use endgame? As it takes 2 levels to grow up to 10 and the damage is constant.

If I reach 51 When I do, that helps a lot. That is a biiiig-big barrier. Probably I'm not completely precise as I often talk about 5 element builds. Jolin is right in the next post... I'm not only using duals but also the highest available single elementals. Clever sense I'm trying to figure out, what to do. Also by re-watching replays. I think my playing problem is, that I try to build balanced: if I need 10 more towers, I always add Well & BS to them what slows the upgrade process. (And I often fail the triples, yesterday I was pretty sure Muck is F+D+E or something else and had to sell the dual.) I try to build one kind of tower at a time in masses, and let's see. My learning curve is toooo slow... Level 1 triples vs. Level 2 duals vs. Level 3 elementals: Duals & elementals are more dps oriented, so I prefer to have them. (At least, I have a wider range to choose from.) Triples usually have some specialties that start to not work when massed: flamethrower's incinerate is not doubled nor reaches 1% at the end, water splash does 5-10% damage to the creeps, drowning and gold are unlikely to kill, impulse placement is limited, zealot would be nice but just feels weak (slow) now, windstorm doesn't stack (damage maybe does), corrosion doesn't stack, and so on. So I rather build twice as much Magic2, Electricity2 towers, or elementals instead. Some triples are dps, I like them, say: Hail, or the previous version of Golems, and surely more.

Let's collect here all the sound things we don't like. Mine only is the Gunpowder and upgrades. It is very loud and triggers often, so once I have it I reduce the volume and hear nothing but chittsh-chittsh I discovered the biggest fun in the game. Flamethrower vs. Nature level till early 20s. BOoooooooooooooooom. ^^

Probably In the meanwhile I figured out why do I think that this change is bad. 1. It is mostly related to random mode. 2. I agree, balance does lie in prices. Said more generally, a 4 element build - usually - contains one buff, while the 6 element build contains all, so with good placement and AoE ratio it is more effective. So, having higher tiers must be compensated. (It is.) 3. Until some point (level 50-55) higher tiers can do serious excess damage what is to be compensated. (It is.) 4. In the name of making the game harder, creep health ratio has been increased and buffs have been seriously reduced. Now, in the name of playability, as creep gold drop is unchanged, prices go down. Simply, it is nothing else, but the effect of real price of damage percentage (macroeconomics ). The game is playable and hard enough (balanced) if all the gold must be spent on towers which can hunt down everything. Creeps got tougher, so either gold must be more or towers cheaper or stronger. It is nothing else but (negative) inflation. Also because of the lesser synergies along towers, their utility is lower, so their real price is higher while the nominal is the same. Why is 6 element build not working? - It is not microable. In random, I *always* end up with a full built map. 65+93+4+12+87, this is my growth order. - Even if microed, it is very hard to get one mob down. Those times one shot does less than 1% of health. - Damage gets spread. It is extremely visible in case of level 60: the first 3 mobs get hunted and then all others walk around with 50% +-40% health. - Having some level 2 duals doesn't change much - compared to level 1 triples. All in short: while a 2 interest, 9 pick, 5-6 element build takes the good 40-60 seconds to hunt a round down, I go to my bed and cry when I watch a 4 element build hunt everything down in less than 20. Well, for now (this beta) I think I talked a lot, maybe too much, so I finish. I await the next beta with any kind of fixes, and let's see!

I agree with Cisz, racing is an essential part of the game. Quick history: - eletd3: -- VE creeps were low hp, low count -> less gold, too -- VE creeps with healing were absolutely imbalanced (felt like 5-6% healing ratio) -- VE players could have trouble in the end with money management. - eletd4 pb -- VE creeps were low hp, equal count -> same gold -> so it is really easier -- VE creeps with healing ... - eletd4 current -- VE creeps have capped hp, equal count -> same... -- VE creeps with healing are balanced So the diff is, that in v3 by spamming one could ruin VE's economy and confuse them at healing levels. In v4, in terms of efficiency, VE dominates VH as you have same gold but less towers and/or enemy hit points to fight. I think it is still better than the v3 solution as it allows casual players to enjoy the game. So I vote for any solution that prevents VE and VH playing the same game. I think, normal and up is enough for online games. Hard is tough enough to be a good player's choice online when mixed.

Just the latter. I must have been unlucky, but 12 water arrows on 2 pass (pos 6) didn't work. The case must be that because of the corner the long pass provides more time to do damage than 2 pass. What I only start to realize now. Thanks ;-) Well, as far as I know, balancing between 3, 4, 5 and 6 element builds is a target (at least, roughly). I just wanted to point it out that the new solution (cheaper upgrades) is not the best direction as it prefers low element count builds (3 element is the best). Balance is (would be) understandable, after all: by having all the - previously not found, I apologize - buff-debuff things in correct numbers (4 slowing triples, enchantment, polar, whatever more & well-bs) it should be viable. Actually it is, except level 60 (last level, I don't call it a problem). It just needs *much* more money to collect earlier and the ability of using the essences (except earth, now). On hard, it is viable with a good practice. (2+ games/day - viable with short).

After a big couple of games I experienced the undead bug (version beta 14b) first now. It is really serious, they explicitly walk backwards. I thought that is just a positioning problem... It starts to happen after level 45 or so. After a while I had lots of towers, as I got all 6 elements so I needed to mass. Replay_2008_09_24_2030.w3g

In B14b, both playing solo or LAN, I did NOT -h-a-v-e- notice this problem. What I had is, that some units reappeared for a very short period of time, then disappeared (I was the host). I have a quite high pc with 4GB RAM. So I vote for this being a performance issue of CPU / lag. Or dependent on luck!

Cool ^^ I'd say, it really depends on the current build. For FWNIF I see no way to get the second fire down, or FLNIF. I know... arrows. If you now the correct amount (say, 24?) and have money to spend on them. If you accept that (earlier) elementals are meant to leak (I don't care about that now, if they leak twice, then they do), then it's okay. What is called strategy? Increasing damage by placement is one strategy, weakening the enemy by slowing / debuffing is another. If you have no weakening, you need more pure damage. It is done now - high level tower prices have been decreased, so that by using high level towers you have the same experience and a faster game. It only suffers if you don't own the high levels, as I usually do on random. Spamming level 1 triples at level 50 is very hard (not cost-effective), at level 55 it's GG. Now the game is tested for four elements, I really wondered how a terrible microed fast game won VH (pos 45, no slow, selling after interest, building before interest). I think the next task is to test 5, 6 element builds, maybe combined with 2 interest at the start. (Viable till 50.) EleTD4 still uses EleTD3 pricing, right? That is balanced for slow, debuff, etc. If EleTD4 needs higher DPS, the solution is not to make higher tier towers cheaper but the creeps should yield more gold. Current price multiplier is 2.5x (down from 4x), so when having more elements you must pay about twice the price for the same dps.

Yes, there was a serious problem with the forums, but it is back & working now. At least for me ^^

Played a whole lot games this weekend. I have some things that came. Just opinions, impressions. - When a resurrected undead is leaking, it is able to resurrect once more. - I had trouble with higher level elementals. - 7 amplified earth had trouble with a light level, on the next level, 8 amplified fire annihilated the earth level. Earth still needs a buff. - In most games I have interest, level 1 elementals and 1-2 else. I usually die about level 50-55 having tons of level 1 triples, as I can only build a pure elemental and one dual. In 10 games I only got once the opportunity to have a level 2 triple. Personally I... - only use Jinx if Nova is unavailable, as I use both towers in the middle of position 5 and Nova is better at endgame with slow. - miss slow. Hydro, Ice is not slowing anymore. Hydro is especially painful as when it stopped in the air, it fell back onto other units but now it falls back on its own spot. I can only mention Muck & Nova & Storm as slowing towers. - feel no motivation to build Golems, especially hate their link mode. Level 55+ ability? Costs a lot, no attack, requires 5+ golems close to work well, or alike. - feel Zealot weak. - feel that mass super arrows/cannons are much cheaper than using elemental towers. Combined with interest picks and a good average skill to sell some of it, they are a killer strategy till the early 20s. - think that the removal of *easy* slow-buff-armor combos makes the game terribly hard. I had a game with 5 elements, 2 interest, E3 L2, 1 essence. So I had 3 pure earth, about 20-30 level 2 quarks, and towers really everywhere, mostly triples. I couldn't fight level 60, I simply double-leaked them (like 25+15). (I didn't have any place to build more towers but about 50K unspent gold.) Besides showing Earth's weakness, this battle shows what the new eletd means: it is much more of a DPS game.

(and for all others) I forgot one thing: I play hard solo, you play very hard competitive, so more towers, less interest. Pick vs. random may also make a difference. Anyway, what I wanted to say, is just if I can farm much more money to make endgame easier, I won't choose short mode, even though I really like the idea. Well, that is the price of a shorter fun I have an idea. We have normal & extreme modes. What about an intermediate, that models competition? Say, next round upon a time limit? When a level starts, counter sets to 60. When a player kills all mobs and counter is higher than the level default (3 at VH, 6 at H, etc.), counter is set to default. When counter reaches 0, next level starts. Or, bringing back the "level is considered finished upon first leak" rule? Again, I mean these as a mode as an alternative to extreme.

Hey! I'm the mad guy who doesn't want to post in 5 topics so opens a new one. ^^ The game is going in a good direction. Besides getting lost in the build, I enjoyed it! Probably, and I say it underlined, bold, whatever, it is going to get easier, and with other words, playable at higher difficulties. Good? Bad? Yours to decide. I had a random short game, and so I have a few things to note: - 1000 cash is a bit low. I could finish the game, but on not-short I manage 1100 as a minimum. As well as 7-8000 till 30. I always play position 3. - My conjured Impulse tower started to attack like a nice Poison. I was surprised. At the end of wave 43. Didn't happen again with any other conjured Impulses. - At level 40 I got my first interest. - At level 50 I got my 6th element. It's good to have everything, but with the last price change I only used it to upgrade my lvl 1 eletricity towers, otherwise it went waste. - I had the most trouble with undead levels. I need some more games to tell if it's significant. - Elements were FEWD,3L,3N. With these towers it was pretty viable (I mean light, nature and life, all of them 1-target and one of them a life-saver). Probably most duals are viable, yet it feels scary. I see you tried fast mode 350 to 375, then back to 350. If that is considered too easy / hard, respectively, what about 360? Replay_2008_09_13_1858.w3g

I don't really understand, why higher Tier bosses have to be that strong. We work hard to get a tier 2, than we pay the price to build the stronger tower. It can be a bonus, if upgrading to the newly achieved towers would be cheaper. (Which, in fact is: elementals had a 4.5x price ratio, while duals & such had a 4x ratio in 3.0, or around that, so you pay with your effort.) I would even try tier 2 bosses have the same health as tier 1 bosses, but of course with the - now nerfed - growth restored. It is also important that dps grows exponentially so the boss health should too. As for the first couple of levels once it was 4500, 6000, 7500, 9000, so it was linear. The increased health of tier 2 makes it harder, as it gets closer to the exponential growth, that was the choice. So, if my choice is EEE, then what? Of course, capping in random is very welcome as EEE is useless till I have at least 5000 gold (level 30 or so?).