Cisz

Karawasa did quite some thinking on this, and he had very good reasons for it. He will probably tell himself, but for what I know, the duals were underpowered before that change, and "sort of a laugh". Also using high level duals greatly limits your tower variety. For 6 picks you get either 3 different towers with a maxed dual or 7 different with a maxed tripple. (Examples: Goldmine, refined earth, refined light vs incantation, sorcerer, lightning, lunar, focused dark, focused light, focused fire)

Hey - sounds good. 6 allready. 2 more and we can set a date.

Afaik you can't. Prove me wrong.

So basically what you are are going at is to randomify rainbow? So that it will leak every 7th creep and do overkill to another 7th? And as a result the tower would be as unreliable as dino, but without the splash? More like another lightning? Remind me - who uses lightning on vh?

Hm. I'm starting to understand how imune should work. Countering slows or maybe other support. But I still don't understand what the game would be like as a result. Right now I fear that placement would become pretty boring, as you have to play on two pass every game. And still I think that canceling most/all support equals about 300-400% hp increase, and thats to big a jump. We should rather nerf aoe slow (thats on it's way now) and, if we decide to have immunes, make them no more then maybe 50-100% stronger vs aoe-slow builds. Which is about what healing or speed does to an unadapted build now.

Thanks for that. Now I will try to prove my point. First we take a look at your replay: Wave 36, dark, mechanical, no leak 18 x 225 in amplified towers 6 x 1.013 in in focused towers ------------------------------------------ 10.128 gold in towers (slight overbuild) Wave 44, dark, undead, no leak 28 x 1.013 in focused towers ------------------------------------------ 28.364 gold in towers (perfect fit, almost leaked) Wave 45, fire, 1 leak 30 x 1.013 in focused towers ------------------------------------------ 30.390 gold in towers (slightly to little) Wave 50, earth, undead, no leak 20 x 1.013 in focused towers 10 x 4.556 in refined towers ------------------------------------------ 65.820 gold in towers (very slight overbuild) I've chosen waves that are not healing or fast and that you have no strong or weak towers against. (Non elemental takes 90% of non composite, so you are actually a bit weak vs non.) And I took waves that you didn't totally overbuild (like wave 52). Let's compare this to the gold available to you through bounty: Wave 36: 6.744 in bounty, 10.128 used; 3.384 difference Wave 44: 15.120 in bounty, 28.364 used; 13.244 difference Wave 50: 27.336 in bounty, 65.820 used; 38.484 difference The difference is the extra gold you needed to kill the wave. You have provided this gold by nicely selling/rebuilding temp towers and by 5 interest picks. (And to a slighter extend by letting the waves last longer.) The gold used can be asumed to be the gold required to kill an immune wave, since you used no support and placed them nearly perfectly. (I tend to dissagree with the towers at 2; numpad notation.) So the question is: Can a player with two aoe slows and no armour reduction produce enough money without interest picks, to be able to kill an imune wave? (We can add one or two single target slows to that.) (Two aoe slows as this will be what you get for an 4 element build if my build structure gets used.) So - a new task - can you provide a second replay with two aoe slows, no armour reduction, no well or gold towers, 1 or 2 single target slows, that gives you a total networth like this: Wave 36: 10.128 Wave 44: 28.364 Wave 50: 65.820 To prove your point you need to provide two replays, one without support and a very low amount of used towers, and one with only two supports and a very high networth. If both values overlap, your suggestion might be possible. This will change with slows getting nerfed ofc... >> Replay: My Attempt << I barely manage to get the required networth (remember to take into account the different calculation of net worth on pick games - so my real networth is higher than the one displayed in the game), but my towers are placed totally wrong for a two pass game on immune waves. And I have to sell all extra towers after each immune wave again, to continue farming interest again, so for each immune wave i loose 25% of my cash. In other words, and imo, immunes have to be decidingly weaker to be ballanced. What do you think?

I don't like the poll, because I can't vote "I don't care". If someone want's to spend the time on it, ok.. But it's really not of any importance. All good players can easily avoid it. And all bad players don't even know of it. I mean, come on, bad players sell on pick and place money towers on 5 (numpad notation).

Hm. So basically that's the same as removing pures. We end up with all towers beeing stronger but the pures, so we could remove the pures instead. Tripples and duals are on par with single element towers. I don't like this suggestion. The "return" feature has two sides. You have to solve every wave, so you can't just ignore, say, wave 60, by leaking it out of the way. Have you played Blizzard TD? You can simply ignore some of the harder creeps there. And with return you get a second chance to win the bounty. By removing the creep returning, leaking would lose you networth. I don't like this suggestion either.. Hm. Why? To get more gold and to build more towers and to have more creeps on the screen at the same time? Aka making the game lag? Aka "I want to play big game hunters with unlimited minerals and all tech researched"? I don't understand this idea. Hm. Not bad.

So what about slow? I they are not vulnerable to slow, slow builds get too low scores. But slow builds can easily put out allmost infinite damage, they just take a long time for it. Imagine using monsoon, freezing, and some single target slow like poison, which will do great vs such a small wave. Minimum speed all over the place.

We are discussing immune waves in the dev team right now. Some of the dev team (including me) seem to think that immune creeps would be far to strong, but we havn't reached an agreement. Rest assured that if the dev team says "no immunes, sorry", this decision was made with some very good reasons. Like immunes are impossible to hold for example.

"There is no air. All towers hit all targets. What you breathe is just your imagination."

Very good idea. If the sun had an attack ground, I would leak less with it.

Do you mean spending only 3 lumber on elements? If so, who needs interest? Or leaks? >> Gem No Leak (8 wood unused) <<

Hi noobforcer. Try using aoe slows: Nova, storm, ice or glacier (not both of the last two, they don't stack, choose one). Once you played around a bit with them and get a feeling of what they do, try to build less damage towers, so you have unspent cash sitting around. You know that you get % und unspent cash, do you? I'm a fan of replays, so why don't you give us one to comment? And keep asking.

Sounds much better. I don't know how fast 100 is, so I'd have to try that one.

Ever wonder why golems are so sad? Well, they try, but.. See for yourself. (Youtube is good for you.)

Bernd das Brot is my hero.

It would require a good book or a flash td in the background on my behalf..

We allready have 7x5 different element/type combos. Is there any map that has more? Afaik this is world record.

Maybe you should think about a pick in nature. Nova? Well? Dino? Undead? Gem? Green is good for you and wave 39. Oh, and don't forget 41 (aka earth fast).

Those first level elements and types are more like a design feature. And I like it.

Ok, provide an example replay.

"Do the macarena!" I'm starting to feel so conservative right now. Seems I'm oldschool.

Did you watch my replay? The tower allready has sufficient damage for lategame. It hits more targets than all splash towers exept maybe dino and nova. Dino has a bad damage type for lategame (last earth 52, last fire 58 ) and nova (same damage type) barely damages and doesn't stack well slow wise. Sun is the only aoe/splash tower with composite damage on the map. So the damage of it is very decent. The only problem is early game, where the tower tends to leak much worse than most dual damagers. This could be solved with higher damage, but won't endgame suffer from this? Now, how about raising the range. In my replay - would that increase my lategame firepower? And how about early game?

Hm. If they have the usual ammount of hit points, you can choose to either leak on those waves or try to go for brute force builds. A brute force build is a build that kills all creeps without support. If such a build is valid, there is no need for support towers on the map. Any build can win. If it is not valid, you will have to leak on immune waves. Not so hot imo. Maybe people could overbuild for immune waves with money they saved with using support towers on non-immune waves.. But that would have to be an overbuild of epic proportions, like "300% of the usual damage my build does", which is a pretty realistic evaluation of the effect of loosing your support towers. In lfwd this loss is even higher. So I think this is impossible to implement balance wise, unless the imune creeps have less hp, so that this overbuild would't have to be that extreme. Remember, many slowing concepts require to build on a long pass placement and brute force won't work if not placed on two pass. So we are talking of yet another loss of firepower of like maybe 20-30% on top of the loss of the support. I wish luck to the dev team for trying to get that to work. Wait, I'm on the dev team.. Evasive action, evasive action, hold developement of immunes now..