Cisz

You are of course Broodway Danny Rose. Bananas?

The "a" and "u" are to stylish imo. Looks like Notare to me. Did you draw the druid like creature?

Wait - don't we get titles anymore? What's up with the new challenge program?

Oh man, I was about to sell the thing to china..

Sounds like a single target slow to me. Or maybe a disable, if the same creep gets time warped over and over again.

As far as i can tell, there are at most 6x5x4x3x2 possible arrangements that would fullfill the requirememnts of this table: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 <- Tower numbers (Element 1) + + + + (Element 2) + + + + (Element 3) + + + + (Element 4) + + + + (Element 5) + + + + (Element 6) + + + + We could fill in the elements into the first collum in 6x5x4x3x2=720 different ways. I would expect that some of them are equivalent, but even if we get a factor like 4 or six out of this, we are still talking three figures. O_o Those different arangements would greatly differ in what damage types are available to what build and this can affect balance. For example, a build with wnl in it likely has no weak element, while a build like edwn is probably weak vs water and dark. It would make sense to arrange the elements in a way that strengthens the builds w/o strong towers.

As I understand it, it will give you extra gold, so on rnd you could get like 125% for a tower.

We don't have decided upon an exact tower distribution yet, so we need flexible sollutions. I'll try to provide my version of the themes that can be used for about any type of tower for the given elements. (Unfinished) (Edit 01, duals continued.) Lists of all 2- and 3-element towers as of 3.0 ldwfne 1 ++ ld Moon 2 + + lw Ice 3 + + lf Electricity 4 + + ln Life 5 + + le Gold 6 ++ dw Poison 7 + + df Magic 8 + + dn Death 9 + + de Tech 10 ++ wf Steam 11 + + wn Well 12 + + we Clay 13 ++ fn Sun 14 + + fe Lava 15 ++ ne Root ldwfne 1 +++ ldw Tidal 2 ++ + ldf Enchantment 3 ++ + ldn Undead 4 ++ + lde Laser 5 + ++ lwf Storm 6 + + + lwn Hail 7 + + + lwe Glacier 8 + ++ lfn Nova 9 + + + lfe Metal 10 + ++ lne Gem 11 +++ dwf Acid 12 ++ + dwn Drowning 13 ++ + dwe Sludge 14 + ++ dfn Summoning 15 + + + dfe Flamethrower 16 + ++ dne Crypt 17 +++ wfn Rainbow 18 ++ + wfe Inferno 19 + ++ wne Flesh Golem 20 +++ fne Dino Duals For balancing reasons, no dual is allowed a mayor game winning effect. dl - Shade, twillight, dawn, ghost, etheral, immaterial. Damage: Weakening, ageing, fear, cripple. Single target slow: Fear, distraction, illusion, weakening. Special effect: Transform, ethereal form, weaken. lw - Clean, pure, holy. Damage: Holy strike, cleaning. Single target slow: Command. Special effect: Blessing, cleaning, strengthen. lf - Energy, sun, force. Damage: Lightning, magic, beam of light. Single target slow: Shock, taser, blind. Special effect: Power up, energize. ln - Life, nature, rebirth, growing. Damage: Overpower, choke, pain. Single target slow: Spores, root, choke. Special effect: Growth, strenghten. le - Minerals, metal, pure material, crafted elements. Damage: Cutting, sting, bash. Single target slow: Blind, hook, chain. Special effect: Improve, complicate, refine. dw - Unclean, poison, slime. Damage: Venom, mist, choke. Single target slow: Poison, sticky. Special effect: Cover, stick, befoul. df - Chaos, energy, force, power. Damage: Energy strike, ripple, blast. Single target slow: Bend, force field. Special effect: Magic, energize, enchant, dispell. dn - Death, decay, rotting. Damage: Rot, corrode. Single target slow: Slime, ageing, fear. Special effect: Age, terror. de - Erosion, underground, cave, Damage: Bite/strike like an underground creature, clobber. Single target slow: Fear, pressure, blind. Special effect: Hide, shade, protect, cover. wf - Steam, boiling, tropical, misty. Damage: Heat, steam, boil. Single target slow: Weaken, feaver. Special effect: Growth, blind. wn - Rain, growth, plant life, slime. Damage: Rain, vine strike. Single target slow: Sticky, entangle. Special effect: Growth, strengthen, refresh. we - Muddy, slippery, flexible. Damage: Splash, pressure, club. Single target slow: Slide, quicksand, sticky. Special effect: Cover, forming, adhere. fn - Warmth, growth, bloom. Damage: Heat, flame. Single target slow: Feaver. Special effect: Strenghten, growth. - Damage: Single target slow: Special effect: More to come.

I have started a long range tower balance thread for your balancing needs. >> Click <<

That doesn't make sense, does it? You say that duals restrict you in your build ("have to sacrifice a lot of diversity to get level 3 dual"), so duals are structurally a disadvantage, and then you demand them to be made weaker than the allready stronger triples ("dual towers should be at least on par if not better than")? The other way around: Duals are a disadvantage buildwise (3 towers for 6 picks instead of 7 towers), so they need to be stronger than triples of an equal level: Dual 2 > triple 1 and dual 3 > triple 2. There are more very strong duals. Of course you know of gold only gaming? (Replay of gold only.) And poison can be very strong too. (Example of lategame poison slowing.) Magic can solo the map too, just like gold can, and electricity is about the only long range tower that can be used as a main damage tower w/o losing. (Combine it with nova and enchantment and get a leaky win.) And don't forget sun, the only splash composite tower on the map. (Or aoe damage? Nevermind, here's the replay.) Many of the duals are support towers, but they do a great job as that. I challenge you to challenge me: Which dual sucks? I'll try to impress you with it.

There is a problem with long range towers so far. (You might want to look up the numpad notation again.) Here it goes: If I use a standard mid range tower (600-700 range, fires once per second), and place it on two pass (that is in a way, that the creeps pass by it two times), like on the right side of the map, one tower will shoot about 30 times at a wave. I did a time experiment: Tower placed on 3 (numpad notation). Wave one starts on 0:47, ends on 1:33, 46 seconds time. Tower placed on 4 (numpad notation). Wave one starts on 0:45, ends on 1:21, 36 seconds time. Add five seconds delay before the next wave, and you get the time a player has to clear the wave in a game with decent oponents. If I actually race the game, this would be even shorter. If we use the longer time, a tower that covers the entire map with it's range would have 51 seconds to bring down a wave. It needs to take out 30 creeps, so it has 1.7 seconds per creep. If we calculate the towers damage based on a firing rate of once per second, the tower has to have 1/1.7= ~0,59 times the damage of a short range tower, if it should do the same amount of damage to a wave in the given time. Remember, this is with about infinite range, so the tower never stops firing, and with the oponents playing the slower two pass. This is about what long range towers do as a damage right now (as for laser or dark compared to rainbow or gold). But in reality, you often have only the 41secs, because your oponent plays on 4 (numpad notation) and this leads to the tower needing 0.8 times the damage (41/51=~0.8 ). And even if he plays slow (on area 3) you don't have the range to keep firing right from the entering point down to area 3. You have to kill the last creep at exactly the same spot as the short range two pass player, down at area 3, because this is how far they move in 51 secs. Shooting at creeps all the time, from starting point to area 3, for 51 seconds, is the maximum damage output your tower can do. Even if you use heavy slowing, your tower won't do more damage. While the short range tower delivers an equal damage in 30 seconds. It fires roughly once at every creep, thats 30 shoots, takes 30secs. So with clever slowing and a fast placement your short range tower gets even a little faster. It just needs to deliver it's damage very early on the creeps path, with a very short time before the firing starts. If the wave needs more time to be killed, like wave 46 or 51, and you have to slow them a lot to get extra shoots, the short range towers advantage gets greater with time, as it deals 20% more damage per second. For a long range tower to be equal to a short range tower placed on area 3, it needs about 0.59 the damage of a short range tower and enough range to reach both the entrance and area 3. And for short range on 4 it needs 0.8 times the damage and enough range to cover the entrance and the path right below area 4. Keep in mind that this allready includes the waiting time between waves. The long range towers, as they are now, barely reach the first requirements (laser actually does), most of them lack the range. None of them can stand the second scenario. This means, that long range (like the one of the dark tower) equals 0.8 times the damage of a short range tower. (Single target, no support.) Imo less damage can not be compensated by more range. Darks range imo is the maximum balancable range. Armour reduction towers leads to the short range tower beeing stronger, because long range builds need to reduce the creeps armour over a longer part of the pass. Strong slowing leads to the short range tower beeing stronger, because they can deal their damage with less waiting time before the creeps arive and deal more damage over time. Light slowing that still requires the short range tower to be played on two pass would reduce the required range of the long range tower, as the creeps don't travel that far. But it would't lead to long range making the kill faster. Basically long range towers need to be at least 0.8 times the damage of a short range tower imo. This leads ofc to a well placed long range tower to make it's kill nearly as fast as a short range tower on area 4. (Remeber again that all my calculations are based on a short range player finishing the wave first and a long range player catching up in the delay time between waves just to be done as the next wave enters. And keep in mind, that a player racing the map on area 7 with some strong slowing and splash will mop the floor with long range any time. 0.8 or not.) 80% sounds to much? I agree, it sounds to much. But still, so far long range plain sucks, right? Discuss.

Earth, fire and water are as balanced relatively to each other as it gets. Water is fast and good range, but smaller splash, earth has good range and splash, but slow rate and fire has good splash and speed but small range. Relatively to duals and triples, e, f and w are about balanced imo, although I never really analyzed it so far.. Just a feeling after many games. But dark, light and nature are weaker, because they lack splash and have range. Imo the long range towers all suck and are impossible to balance for several reasons. But it would be a shame to lose long range as a concept. Diversity would suffer.

Yeah, we need an aoe slow that doesn't use water as an element. Oil, roots, hooks, thorns, fear, paralyse, something like that.

..and: >> Peter Gabriel - Big time << Stop motion, blue box, claymation, big time film effects.

Wouldn't change a thing. If the tower deals an overall positive damage, it's no difference from electricity imo.

This is actually quite good. Grats.

And if so, the tower basically only needs massing to be no different than, say, electricity. I'd say, not so interesting.

It's version 3.1 or 3.5 or 4.0, but not 3.0. And I don't care for what tower exactly, because only if I playtest it in an actual map I can start to find out if it works. If I was to do the map, I would make some "freeze the ground" effect, that simply makes the creeps move slower over that area, because I know for sure that this will result in a working balanceable tower. No weird side efects or abuseable interactions. All "wouldn't it be cool" towers with complicated "we move the creeps around" effect could be great or horrible, I just can't tell without trying. If the actual makers think the chance of the tower beeing actually balanceable without too much trouble is worth the risk of having to remove the tower again, ok, go ahead.

You could read the post, you know..

I don't have a tv either. DVD's run on my comp, I have a flatrate and the movie theatre is not that far away. (I can watch TV on my night shifts though..) Why would I want a TV?

Afaik ice allways was slowing stronger with each upgrade.

The next one is.. >> Royksopp - Remind Me << Schematic, abstract, clear, objective, functional, life.

Might be a little too strong for a normal tower and to weak for a game winning one.

I'm not sure about balance, but I really like the idea of two towers forming a pair with a connection. It's very diverse, sounds like tricky placement. Even if it's hard to get a decent ballance, the idea is imo good enough to be worth some effort to make it work.

Exactly. Thats an opinion I have heard over and over again in media classes. So let me ask you some polemic questions. Is suggestive, manipulative or propagandistic media harmless, if you watch it just for fun? @Sancdar - So let's go to a sculpture exhibition.