Cisz

Hiho. Im Cisz. I'm from germany, I'm living near Hamburg. I play eletd a lot, although lately I've spent more time on organizing other peoples playing and working on the new map version. And I just finished the last Harry Potter.

As far as I know Karawasas plans, I guess the copy tower will look a bit like this: Level 1 dual: Can create 1 copy for 5 seconds every 15 seconds. Level 2 dual: Can create 2 copies for 7 seconds every 15 seconds. Level 3 dual: Can create 6 copies for 10 seconds every 15 seconds. No pures or other players towers can be copied.

I'd expect the b-net times to be longer, so you will probably get poor times online.

Could you list all your changes and the reasons for them?

Ok ok ok, here is my sequence (### indicates an element spawn): 5 non ### 6 w 7 e 8 l fast 9 d 10 n undead ### 11 f 12 e fast 13 w 14 l 15 f healing ### 16 d undead 17 n 18 non fast 19 l healing 20 e mech ### 21 f undead 22 non 23 n 24 w mech 25 d fast 26 f 27 l 28 n healing 29 d 30 e undead ### 31 w fast 32 non mech 33 n 34 f 35 d healing ### 36 w 37 l mech 38 non undead 39 e 40 n fast ### 41 w undead 42 d 43 e healing 44 l 45 non 46 f mech 47 w 48 l undead 49 d 50 n mech ### 51 e 52 f fast 53 l 54 n 55 w healing ### 56 non 57 f 58 d mech 59 e 60 non healing ### And here is the sequence in MagicalHackers tool: >> Click here<< The worst thing about it is probably "no fire for 12 waves". Apart from that it's pretty much flawlessly brutal. [05:48] hyperprimate: hmm.. one thought... atleast in the end this is the hardest possible combination, meaning that chaos will always be easier [05:48] Cisz: oh - interesting [05:48] Cisz: well, it hasnt got the maximum atributes though [05:49] hyperprimate: true, the 7 last levels all being healing would be harder [05:49] Cisz: hehe Check out my special, er, hardware: And another one in the process of sequencing: So, are you scared now?

@King: You and Xkli did a good job there. And your arrow opening is getting better.

I was thinking along this lines: They should place themselves as close to the clicked spot as possible, while keeping nicely to a grid so they don't take away to much space. As long as all your towers are kept to the grid as well, you will end up with a tighly clumped build.

I didn't play the new chaos on pick, but if I don't go lfwd/lfwn, there is no reason it shouldn't prove interesting.

Ah - that's good to know. As for "official", I was thinking along the lines of announcing it on different forums and tft scene sites, to attract more players. But no announcement w/o a date ofc.

As much as I admire the coding of MagicalHacker, for this problem I ceated my own tool. It's very, er, hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamesurge Yes.

It's gamesurge.

I'm not sure what to think of this. The strong duals are support, so even if a player goes for a maxed strong dual for 31, he won't have the net worth to benefit from it then. (When I used to go for monsoon on 31, I usually could afford the monsoon and one level 1 ice.) And five waves later, he can throw up a serious arrow force, and can benefit from one exrta triple, although not a strong one.

I'm with karawasa on the frostbite. It's a nasty combo of a disable and a brutal damage increase. The "double damage" and the "is frozen for a few seconds" can be changed to whatever numbers we need to make the tower have the right strength. @Chaks distribution: I see one flaw in your choise of duals. It occured to me yesterday in a chat with jolin012, that there are two different classes of them. There are duals in which one of the two elements dominates the other. Those duals are easier to max as duals in which the elements are indifferent towards each other. Imo we shouldn't mix those "easy" and "hard" duals in the same distribution, and in your case only one of them is easy (ld). And even more, we need to decide, if the strong duals schould be hard to max for wave 31 or not. This is a balance question, and I'd rather delay it till after a bit of testing the entire map in motion, but we would have to rearrange and redesign to much if we don't decide this first. Here is an example of how to max an "easy" dual, it's a gold only replay.

MagicalHacker did some sweet and fast calculation and found that there are actually only 15 different ways to distribute the elements into the three duals. And for each of those sets of duals, the triples are easily calculated: Number 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Dual 1 ld ld ld lf lf lf lw lw lw le le le ln ln ln Dual 2 fw fe fn dw de dn df de dn df dw dn df dw de Dual 3 en wn we en wn we en fn fe wn fn fw we fe fw Trip 1 lfe lfw lfw lde ldw ldw lde ldf ldf ldw ldf ldf ldw ldf ldf Trip 2 lfn lfn lfe ldn ldn lde ldn ldn lde ldn ldn ldw lde lde ldw Trip 3 lwe lew lnw lwe lew lnw lfe lef lnf lfw lwf lnf lfw lwf lef Trip 4 lwn len lne lwn len lne lfn len lne lfn lwn lnw lfe lwe lew Trip 5 dfe dfw dfw fde fdw fdw wde wdf wdf edw edf edf ndw ndf ndf Trip 6 dfn dfn dfe fdn fdn fde wdn wdn wde edn edn edw nde nde ndw Trip 7 dwe dew dnw fwe few fnw wfe wef wnf efw ewf enf nfw nwf nef Trip 8 dwn den dne fwn fen fne wfn wen wne efn ewn enw nfe nwe new Sorry for the messy format, the elements of the towers are in more or less random order for now.

I agree. Karawasa seems to think that tank is a bit boring, but that's not the case if you have to bring the damn things down. Just raise the HP till the players start to sweat.

Ah, nice. Yes, that's fine with me. Agreed. We will come up with a fitting name and design once the elements are nailed.

All strong towers need to be support imo. So magic is a nono. How about this. It's the best I could find so far balance wise. There are two mayor aspects to note: Maxed strong dual is worth 8 points, while maxed strong triple only 3. And there are 3 4-element-builds that are slightly weaker. Those are the ones w/o any strong triples, that get their points entirely through duals. (They are at 24 points total, while all others are at 26.) For this two reasons this distibution is not perfect, but I think it might be a bearable compromise. @Karawasa - the biggest difference in your version is 13%, in mine it's only 8%. Let me suggest a todo list: Step 1: Identify all aoe slows and armour reducers.Step 2: If that's < 11, find other promising support towers till number = 11. Step 3: Split into 3 duals and 8 triples. Not the other way around, don't decide whats a dual or triple before you have them all collected. Decide that upon distribution. Step 4: Apply elements. Step 5: Celebrate, then remember that the damn thing needs to be made still. Let me start to work this list down. Step 1: Identify all aoe slows and armour reducers. Taken from the original post, we have: AoE slows: * Needs Name - A line based AoE slow/DoT * Ice (can be renamed of course) - ??? * Nova - FLN * Tornado - FLW Armour reducer: * Enchantment - DFL * Acid - DFW Total: 6, needs 5 more Step 2: If that's < 11, find other promising support towers till number = 11. Promising support: * Replicate - Creates temporary copies of towers * Well * Frostbite - Freezes a unit for X seconds. If that unit is attacked while frozen, it receives extra damage and is unfrozen * Maledict - Curses a unit, dealing damage to it every X seconds based on how much HP it has lost (since the curse started) Less promising and no support: * Greed - A tower that gives gold to the player per attack, based on how much damage it does Ok, let's pretend greed will do the trick, so I move on to step 3 under reserve: Step 3: Split into 3 duals and 8 triples. The duals need to be 2.666 times the power of a strong triple, so I chose towers as dual that are likely to own and can easily be buffed/nerfed. I also try to make it divers, so I choose towers of different types: Duals: * Well * Frostbite - Freezes a unit for X seconds. If that unit is attacked while frozen, it receives extra damage and is unfrozen * Replicate - Creates temporary copies of towers Triples * Ice * Needs Name - A line based AoE slow/DoT * Nova * Tornado * Enchantment * Acid * Maledict - Curses a unit, dealing damage to it every X seconds based on how much HP it has lost (since the curse started) * Greed - A tower that gives gold to the player per attack, based on how much damage it does Coming soon: How to distribute the elements.

@Tiger Solid gem power with decent micro. But - your map filename is bad, plz rename to "Element TD 3.0.w3x", so I don't have to change my filename to watch it the next time. Thnx.

I'm a zerg player, so burrowing sounds cool. Live for the swarm. And the model could be the zergling.

Are you telling me that you want to drop all live giving towers and instant deaths? Maybe you should stick a big warning label somewhere to make this more clear.

Imagine this: A group of blink towers selected, I press "b" and click a general area on the minimap, and the towers jump over, placing themselves bewteen the stationary towers allready placed there (slow, armour reducers), looking for free slots to fit in. If you really think thats to weak, make it blink instant and w/o cooldown and give them a very fast attack, so they can pratically keep firing. But you will notice after a few games, that this tower is too strong, even better than summoning, and really doesn't need any help to be usesfull on rnd. Rebuilding takes time, and micro, blinking should be simple, so you can use your work elsewhere. And I think it would be nice to have a tower with a greater effect on pick, since we allready have towers that work best on rnd.

Near the point where the waves meet, the tower is effectively having a pretty big splash, so if used on stacked creeps it will be very effective. And whats the problem with blink? I think its a great idea, and I stole it from SC2, I mean, suggested it.

If I get this right, we are about to lose the concept of imunities, as all towers are supposed to work on all creeps. I think thats a big change and would make this a different map. I agree that many towers didn't get used on pick, because there were to many creeps immune against them (tech, or the instant kill towers). But losing the concept sounds like a loss of complexity and diversity. So how about having towers that don't work on certain types, but make them work on more types. Like this: Drowning, ageing - affects all but undead. Poison, paralyse - affects all but mech. Corrodic gas, and, er, maybe acid snails? - affects all but fast. I'm still looking for things that affect all but healers.

What about all the armour ignoring towers?