Cisz

As you play it, roots doesnt hit all creeps, it needs a 2 pass placement imo, while nova and storm will usually cover the entire wave at once. I'll try to provide a replay, maybe there is more to it.

I guess you build too many towers, so you don't have enough interest. Try upgrading nova or windstorm instead of roots, and then one quaker and one zealot should be enough. After wave 51, you can sell all quakers and zealots, if you can get a periodics for that. In PB periodics sell at 100%, so you can farm interest with them.

Thats was the 10th pick. Here a summary: Duals removed: hydro, gunpowder, mushroom, disease Triples removed: drowning, hail, gold, voodoo, golem, tidal, impulse. [pre:1qc7fq47]L 12 D 12 W 23 F 22 N 12 E $$$[/pre:1qc7fq47] No earth, no pure, no maxed dual so far, but lv2 in all but earth. I assume that kirby will agree with me about not playing a 6 ele. So its up to me to decide about one of the pure possibilities, and what dual can be maxed. Hm. If I go fire, we can't have a support dual maxed. If I go light, there is a chance of kirby going for maxed life. Ok Kirby, it's up to you to finalize it: I choose: 11th pick: Light 3

Now this is a classic. LDWFN. As usual, and I hope we all agree, no earth pls.

6th pick - Light 2. Ice ice baby..

Update: I have checked some more flats with Kara, and we have a list of 4 now: http://www.ferienwohnung-zimmer-berlin. ... 4&unr=145& http://www.ferienwohnung-zimmer-berlin. ... m=1&y=2009 http://www.ferienwohnung-zimmer-berlin. ... m=3&y=2009 http://www.ferienwohnung-zimmer-berlin. ... 0&d=1&m=3& The number of beds is still confusing, as sometimes "2 single beds" turn out to be "one sleeping couch for two", so I'll need to ask them all. [pre:2z6do1g5]Overview Total for Double Single Maximum Cost per pers 2 Weeks Number Rooms beds beds Capacity I-net Location and night Cleaning per pers. No. 145 3 1 2 4 dsl medium 14.50 Euro incl. 203.00 Euro No. 203 2 2 ? 6 no medium 10.00 Euro 15.00 Euro 143.75 Euro No. 1132 2 2 0 4 yes out there 13.00 Euro 20.00 Euro 187.00 Euro No. 1880 3 3? 2? 8 dsl central 14.75 Euro 40.00 Euro 216.50 Euro[/pre:2z6do1g5] I'll be bringing my computer along, it's a Shuttle barebone. Since Jolin will probably jump in for a night or two, I'll also bring a decent camping bed.

3rd pick - Fire 2 Monsoon, here we come. How about a forces of nature build? An lfwn anyone?

Yes, that's prbably true. Ok, now do it on very hard, and with no cheats, and provide a replay please.

Do I get this right - we indirectly removed roots?

As it seems, kara and jolin wont bring a comp, so the lan is out. Edit - For about 250 euro per person, 4 could rent this thing here for about 16 days: http://www.ferienwohnung-zimmer-berlin. ... 0&d=1&m=3& Has a kitchen, washer, dsl, 3 rooms, TV. More or less central, about the cheapest I could find yet. Opinions? Edit - And here are some transport costs, we will probably buy some sort of week-ticket: http://www.bvg.de/index.php/de/Bvg/Index/folder/211

Dual: Mushroom. Triples: Tidal, Impulse, Gold.

Ok, I'm in. Let's fail this.

Hi KaM, welcome to the forums. Let's see, what have we got here. VH, SR Cm, nice mode. My impression is: You don't pay a lot of attantion to the dmg types and armors. Wave 7 - Fire healing, and you use nature - thats 50% dmg only. I think you should use super arrows instead. Wave 8 - Fire undead, and again nature. I would use super cannons here, undead should be tackled with splash, and again nature has only 50% dmg. Wave 13 - Earth. Maybe a life tower would have been better. You would have lost a bit of interest, but gained a life or two. Wave 20 - You try to catch the fire elemental with earth towers, which have splash. They do about 50% or less vs sinlge targets. Imo light towers or arrows would have been better. Wave 27 - Earth undead. You use nova here, 50% dmg. Nature cannons, or even mass nature would do better imo. Wave 31 - Fire. You try to use natures to combine with your nova, and they do only 50% dmg. I think earth would be better. Wave 34 - Dark undead. You use a quaker and a nova, how about two novas instead? (200% dmg here) Wave 35 - Nature mech. Quakers are earth splash, but I guess you need single target fire here. No proper tower is available, maybe try mass electricity. Wave 37 - Composite mech. You use tidal on two pass, and I believe it's better on long pass. But others disagree with me here. Does that make sense to you? Or even help?

Here is my suggestion: 1.) You whisper a bot for a ladder game. (Could be "/w EtdBot ladder game" or "/w EtdBot lg") 2.) The bot checks if the nick is registered as a ladder player. If not, it replies "You are not registered as a ladder player. Go to http://www.eletd.com and get a ladder account." If the nick exists, the player get's listed as waiting for a game, and the bot replies "I'm looking for a game for you.. X more players waiting" (X beeing the number of all other waiting players ofc). The bot will re-whisper this until he finds a matching player, and it will ask "You still want a game? Whisper 'yes' or 'no' " every once in a while. If the player whispers no, or does not reply yes for more than a few minutes, he is removed from the list. 3.) The bot checks if at least two players of similiar rank are listed as waiting for a game. If yes, those two are selected for the game, continue at 100. The list can hold a lot of players, if none of them match properly. "Matching players" would be players that have the same ladder points +/- a bit. 4.) If no matching players are listed as waiting, the bot checks if players are online that would fit. For this, the bot has a list of players it has recently seen. It checks if there are players of a matching rank in the channel that have not requested a game yet, and asks them "Would you like to join a ladder game?" It also checks for matching players that recently whispered the bot. And it checks matching players that joined a ladder game recently, for if the game in question allready ended. (The bot would know, as it would have hosted the game and gotten a game report and the end of game.) It tries to /whois them and if they are in a channel, it asks them too if they'd like to join. If any agrees, he and his matching partner are selected for the game too, continue at 100. Any players it tries to find that are no longer online will be removed from the "recently seen" list. 5.) If the bot fails to find players of a matching skill level for a while, so one player has been waiting for a game long, it will loosen up the searching criteria, and looks for any players listed as waiting. How long it will wait before that will depend on what we deem to be "annoyingly long". If the waiting list has 2 or more players listed, it selects the player waiting the longest, and matches him with his closest partner. Continue at 100. 6.) If only one player is listed waiting, the bot will try to find any player for him by whispering whatever ladder player it can find (recently seen in channel, or players that whispered it, or players that just finished a ladder game). Again, all those that turn out to be offline are removed from the list. That should be all about managing waiting players and finding new ones. The bot will be busy doing that unless the waiting list is empty, in which case he can happily idle around. 100.) A pair of player has been found, matching more or less. The bot opens a game and whispers the gamename to both selected players. ("Join the game with the name: Etd Ladder #1456") The game could be public to make the gamenames visible to the public, as some sort of advertisement. But any non-selected players or even non-ladder players that join the game are auto-kicked by the bot with a nice greeting. Either the "You are not registered as a.." bit, or a "Whisper 'ladder game' to the EtdBot for a game." if it's a listed ladder player. 101.) The bot will check every 15 seconds or so if the players actually joined the game, and if not, re-whispers them. Any player that joins the game lobby is informed that: "Leaving the game lobby without a game is counted as a loss, unless the game is cancelled by the bot. To request a cancel, whisper '-cancel' to the EtdBot." This continues until either two players joined the lobby, or one of them cancels the game before both entered the lobby. Once both have entered the lobby, the game is considered active. If one of the two leaves, diconnects, or alt-F4's after joining the game lobby, he gets a loss. The only ways to get out of the lobby are either through the game or by whispering "cancel" to the bot while beeing the only player in the lobby, in which case the bot will close the game. The bot also may close the game if the other player doesn't show up and/or doesn't respond. If the game is closed, the players are kept as waiting on the list, and they are told so. 102.) Once both players are in the lobby, the bot informs them: "You can start the game by whispering me 'start', or you can wait for more players (X players waiting for a game)." The players can now choose to either start the game by whispering "start" to the bot, or wait. If the game consists of matching players and no more matching players can be found by the bot, the bot will annouce "Game start in 9..8..". Otherwise it tries to add players that have a ranking between the two allready in the game. For this to happen, these additional players would have to have whispered the bot after the game was created, as the bot allready selected the closest partner. Players that would increase the ranking differences are first checked if a better fitting player can be found for them on the waiting list, in which case they get an extra game hosted. Only if a player on the waiting list is over the maximum wait and has no better partner outside the game, he is added to it. 103.) The game can either start once all players in the lobby have whispered "start", or the bot starts the game once it is full. It could also be autostarted after a while (to avoid annoyance again). If one player leaves/gets lost now, he get's a loss. That should be the protocol. All the whispering to the bot could also be done by chatting in the same channel or lobby, if a bot can read that too. Makes things a bit easier.

Good concept. All players in a ladder game should be playing ladder, agreed? And the ladder games need to have a set of allowed modes. I suggest the following modes to be allowed: -Pick, but in the form of forced pick (ap); no player may switch to rnd after this is selected. -SR -Extreme (x) -Chaos mode (cm) -All three gamelenghts (sm, xsm) Not allowed are mixed diff and mixed rnd/pick games. I still couldn't settle my differences with kara. Are all diffs valid? Imo yes, kara says no. what do you guys think? All ladder games have to be vh?

@ Jolin - if the net point change of a normal game is 0, the total points of the ladder will grow. That is because players not dropping under 0 points, so each game that would bring a player under 0 raises the point total. There is also a loss due to good players stopping to play ofc. Experience with existing ladders show, that ladders total points tend to grow annoyingly fast. As a result in badly adjusted ladders, top players cant be caught anymore, because they have like 1000 points more than you and keep growing the same speed than you do. @ echinodermata - I expect that too. Do you have any knowledge on elo ratings? Or any solid reasoning why we might be right with that expectation?

We dont have to use 15 ranks. We could use 3. Or 17000? It's up to us. And it's not my point system, it's the one of the wgt. And we can completely change that one too.

Good asked some questions regarding what mode will be played in the ladder games. As far as I am concerned, any mode the player agree upon, with two exceptions: No mixed rnd/pick and no mixed diff. Kara does think otherwise, maybe he will suggest a forced vh. Still the players have different modes to chose from. I suggest the following method: In a ladder game, the red player selects a game mode and the other players gets the selection displayed, along with an "ok/no" selection. If even one player refuses that selection, they get to play vh sr sm (or whatever we like to force them to use). Thoughts?

Additional thoughts: For the top ranks in wgt the table looks like this: For every possible matchup a top ranked player can get, the point loss by loosing is greater than the gain of winning. Playing players of your own rank (with a 50/50 chance of a win or loss) will be bad for you in the long run, as there is a negative net point difference of 20 points in an equal match. And playing players of different level is bad for one of them, as the net point gain again is negative. If the gain properly represents winning chances, the match again is bad for both of them. So where is your motivation to play at all? There needs to be an extra rule to keep the top players playing. Edit TfT Ladder The frozen throne ladder uses two tricks: The players can't choose their opponents, they only get ladder points if they take a player selected by the amm (automated match making system), which is as close to the players rank as the system manages. And if you don't play a lot of games, you lose points. http://www.battle.net/war3/ladder/war3- ... ron#chart1 In that chart there is a number of games per week that you have to play (via the amm) to not loose points. The number of games grows linear with the level, you have to play 1 game per week more if you want to keep 1666 xp more on your account. As a result there is a point where more games simply cannot be played within a week, so there is a limit on the level. I dislike this method, as it encourages the players to mass play games. Currently the top ranked player on lordaeron has to play 10 games per week not to loose points. Conclusion about tft ladder: The amm is a cool concept, maybe we can use that too. It ofc is just a workaround, as it can't force a decent player on you if there is none present online. We still should keep record if a player meets only low level opponents, and ofc there still needs to be a weighting based on your opponents level. Maybe players find a way to abuse an amm, like only playing at night, or join a server where all players suck. Can the amm system be improved? At least each player should get some sort of stats about what level his opponents are, so it can be easily seen if they actually meet their own skill level in a game sometimes. The point decay system is interesting, but I have doubts about enforcing 10 games per week. Again, this does not make sense without some influence upon who they play. It's not enough to beat up 3 beginners per week not to loose your top 10 rank imo. Again, it's hard to enforce "has to play a player of similiar rank" if they just are not online. It may very well happen that top 10 players hop online for 10 secs per day, check, no valid opponents are there, they go off again and claim to "never have had the chance to play". They could even arrange a schedule to avoid each other. Maybe 4 games per week and an amm? Edit: the tft ladder stores only games with at least one strong player: http://www.battle.net/war3/ladder/war3- ... =Lordaeron So something like "only top 20 replays are stored" along with "if you are a top 20 player, only games that are succesfully reported with a replay (to be saved by the bot) count towards your rank" and ofc with "manipulating the bot/ladder in a way that prevents a replay to be saved is cheating". And "top 20" can be anything we want it to be. Best ranked 100 replays each day? Anything with a player with at least 20 played ladder games in it? We can pick what we like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system The Elo system is the method of choice. Afaik it has never or nearly never been applied to ffa situations yet. I'm opposed to using any other data than win or loss, or maybe rank in a game. If we use anything else, we will end up promoting certain modes and preventing others. If for example we give out points for interest, we punish xsm. If we reward ronald, we punish rnd and non-xsm, and so on. Edit - In an attempt to understand each other or irc, kara reminded me of the wg tour: http://www.wgtour.com http://www.wgtour.com/help.php?datab=broodwar&h=1&id=49 http://www.wgtour.com/help.php?datab=broodwar&h=1&id=67 In short: It's an open ladder, not a scheduled league like the nhl. And it basically encourages players to play other players of the same rank. I strongly suggest that if we use something based on the wgt, we should ask for permission, properly credit them, and change a lot cosmetically (like renaming the ranks, lowering all point values by 1.5). The WG Tour explained (The following is quoted from above links.) On the wgt, players have points (eg. player XY can have 4321 points), a place on the ladder (eg. player XY can be 1234th of the ladder), and additional to that a ladder rank (eg. player XY can be B3): These ranks are used for two additional rules. One rule forbids replaying the same player too often. It is assumed that a high ranked player (not to be confused with a high ladder place) are less likely to be cheat acocunts for handing out free wins: This second mass of numbers cam be explained in pretty simple words too: - If you win vs a stronger player, you get more points than for winning vs a weaker player. - If you loose agains a weaker opponent, you loose more points than for loosing against a stronger opponent. - If you have a low rank (C6-C4; not to be confused with ladder place), you will gain points fast even if the opponent is weaker, and you will lose points very slow. You can't drop under 0 points. - If you have a medium rank (C3-C0), you will still gain points fast, but only if the opponent is not much weaker than you, and you will lose points slow. - If on a higher rank (B6-B4), you will gain and loose points fast. - If on a top rank (B3-A), you will gain points slow, and loose points very fast. I come to the following conclusion regarding the wgt system: -Low level players (C6-B4) will rise fast. -Over a long time period most players will arrive at least at medium level. -High level players (B3-A) will have a hard time staying on top if and only if they play each other. Top ranks will be contested only if top players play each other. -Games vs weaker players won't give much gain for high ranked players. -Overall the total of points in the system will be increased if low level players play each other (positive net point change) and decreased if high level players play each other (negative net point change). -In the case of a C6-C4 vs B3-A (maximum rank difference), with the expected result of the better player winning, the total ladder points go up by 5 points. (We could ofc set the point gain for this to 0.) -Players can grind for points by hunting lower level players (as long as they don't play the same one too ofter per day), and reach infinite points in infinity time, while never playing players of their skill level ("skill level" is not to be confused with "ladder rank"). If enough players do this, the net points of the ladder will rise slowly into infinity. -The given nubers of the wgt do a bad job at preventing this. As long as points are created by low level player playing amongst themselves (positive net point gain), those gained points can be farmed by top players. They focus on the lowest level players that still will give them points, and if those are not skilled enough to provide a slight risk of failure, grinding works. -A better point game table would not award any points to top players for playing low level opponets without a chance to fight back. The tricky bit is to decide what constitutes a slight chance of the lower ranked player to score a surprising win. -To prevent this abuse, the wgt usually resets the ladder from time to time. This results in the ladder beeing devided into seasons, and each season is a hunt for top ranks, points and placings. With the season ending ahead, there is no time to grind up fast enough. The best players will allways peak faster than grinders by playing high ranked opponents.

ID beeing an ID for the match? But we need that. What about "gamereport missing - possible cheat" error? If there is no way to tell which game wasn't properöy finished, how to find it?

I think it would be cool to have a "Results" mode for the multiboard. There could be an extra row for stuff like "rnd" or "ar" or "sr", "ex", "xsm" and so on. The diff is allready there, encoded in the players text colour on the multiboard. We only have to ask if someone hides the board on his screenshoot. And if someone has a reason to hide the board, he will also hide any other usefull information that would reveal he's on ve pick.

That is very weird. I've never seen that before.

Hi pallenda, welcome to the forums. But.. why allrandom? If you go samerandom, you can save the replay and check what the winning players did, so you can learn from them. Also, allrandom can be pretty unfair.

Great ideas. ) I really like the "interest in 14" idea. Maybe a clock that counts time in quarter minutes? About those paperweights: Yes, they should be doable custom made. And we could also have some metal stuff like custom computer cases with a custom eletd design, or keychainbling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_cutting And dice have 6 sides. Where du we put composite?