[Beta 15][Again] Poisons name/color is confusing

[Kaini]

Because the green animation + water damage confuses me.

The name Posison is confusing too. Maybe we sould rename the tower to Tsunami Tower or Wave Tower or something like that....

[dvdlesher]

Tsunami is used, but wave isn't

I think wave is okay.. But could be mistakenly referred to "creep wave"...

Hmm... How about:

- Stream

- Waterstream

[jolin012]

hm

Elements=Name works very well.

Name=effect is not true either for the attack model or the effect it does.

Ice is played very much alike poison. they share one element, share dmg type and share the same way of playing. that is not great. element shared and dmg type could not be changed though.

if it'd be changed to an AoE Dot (like many would perhaps guess from poison (ofc they'd guess slowing too, but that ain't possible) it would be much alike Flame. however, we could make it an ST stackable Dot. I think that'd work. stackable meaning if cast on same creep it will Degen hp faster, just like flame or suffering from 2 kindles. would use the good old poison atttack model that we had in 3.0. and the same old green little cloud around poisoned creep.

[m0rph1ing]

I think poison and death can swap their elements and damage types. Poison would be DN and deal darkness damage while death would be WD and deal water damage. Water damage from corpse explosion might be a bit out of flavor, but I think it's better than having 2 nearly identical towers in function.

[Cisz]

Death is not even present in the pb, let alone the b15. You mean disease?

[m0rph1ing]

My bad, ya I meant disease. Death is the level 3 of disease. That got me a bit confused.

[Twilice]

Oh, I kind like the idea.

Disease explodes the bodys. Water damage.

But sadly both water explosions is used. The eruption is used on hydro.

And the naga building death is used by drowning.

And D-N could be poison, and then poison to "Poison" roots. Sounds great.

[echinodermata]

But hydro is earth damage, so its animation should also be changed, so that its current animation can be given to disease.

To sum things up:

Hydro should have an earth-like animation (and be given a more earth-appropriate name)

Disease should be changed to [DW] and have hydro's animation (and be given a more water-appropriate name)

Poison should be changed to [DN]

Okay?

[Karawasa]

There is no intent of actually changing the elements that make up the tower, as it causes much undue work and trouble. This was pointed out by jolin012 earlier, but I actually disagree with him about damage type. If we are clever about swapping damage types we could change Poison to Darkness.

Something like this should be possible:

Poison: Water > Darkness

Magic: Darkness > Fire

Steam: Fire > Water

Perhaps this exact combination is not optimal (based on build distribution, a simple tool could make this process super easy...) but the idea is sound.

Thoughts?

[m0rph1ing]

Assigning poison to darkness would definitely eliminate the poison/ice overlap problem. I think the key is to balance the damage types within the builds.

[Cisz]

Why whas poison changed to water in the first place?

[Twilice]

Maybe you missunderstood kara.

No tower damage types would be changed.

Only tower abilitys.

DN would have DW ability and still have darkness damage.

DW would have DN ability and explode creeps dealing still water damage.

WE would change animation so that maybe DW would have that animation instead when creep explodes.

[jolin012]

So - m0rph1ing suggests to swap the name and ability of poison and disease, but keep combo and attack type. And karawasa suggests to switch the Damage types of magic poison and kindle.

To swap ability and name of poison and disease does not cause any unseen trouble. All it does is what we allready know it does. so the question is - watery corps explosion named disease DW? imo that's um... i guess that's um.. well, i don't quite like it. and darkness poison, DN well that's not terrible either, but i liked the name death(lv 3 though, although i think it should be name of tier 1) better with Dark+Nature.

To swap the elemental types of 3 towers like that Does cause a greater affect than what is seen from the outside. Ok - it is sugguested to switch 3 towers - which is better than one - because we still stay with 2 dmg duals of each type. But - the problem is - that allready exists in b15 that several of the better 3ele builds, meaning the 3 eles in a 4 or 5ele build that are the ones to get maxed (v 3). out of those 3 eles, meaning every 3ele build that does contain a sup dual and not a sup triple, should have 2 attack towers of different attacktypes. for example we currently have LEF with smith(support) quark(dmg light) and elec(dmg light). By changing around the elemental combinations of towers without caring about this, we make less 3eles able to max out. if kindle would be water, then EFW would no longer be able to max.

What I sugguest is that IF we shall bother to change the elements we shall look into it. for example, quoted from a post in june

LE - L(ight Dmg)

LN - L

DW - D

DF - D

WE - W

WL - W

FL - F

FW - F

ND - N

NF - N

ED - E

EN - E

That means that if:

Life tower is light damage

Poison tower is darkness damage

Hydro tower is water damage

Electricity tower is Fire damage

Death/disease tower Nature damage

Flame tower is nature damage

Mushroom tower is earth damage.

Then all 3ele builds that are useful to max(meaning not those that are a sup dual) would not have 2dmg duals of the same elemental attack type. - or are there too many uncomfortable changes? I'd like life poison hydro change. electricity death mush wouldn't be terrible, but FN which currently is flame, to be nature damage... eurgh.

there are a few other possible setups but I'm not sure they can let us to better changes, these changes were the best i found so far. I will look into it and see what i find.

Oh - and for those who didn't understand why it is bad when 3maxed elements that contain a dual supporter share same elements on the 2 dmg duals, that is because, those builds are rather useless compared ot others. that means, all builds that contain those, and as there currently are like 4 of those 3ele combos, then probably

[jolin012]

Here are 8 ways. The first one is the one from the former post.

LE - L

LN - L

DW - D

DF - D

WE - W

WL - W

FL - F

FW - F

ND - N

NF - N

ED - E

EN - E

2nd one:

LF - L

LN - L

DW - D

DE - D

WF - W

WL - W

EL - E

EW - E

ND - N

NE - N

FD - F

FN - F

3rd one:

LE - L

LW - L

DN - D

DF - D

NE - N

NL - N

FL - F

FN - F

WD - W

WF - W

ED - E

EW - E

4th one:

LF - L

LW - L

DN - D

DE - D

NF - N

NL - N

EL - E

EN - E

WD - W

WE - W

FD - F

FW - F

5th one:

LE - L

LN - L

DW - D

DF - D

WE - W

WL - W

FL - F

FW - F

ND - N

NF - N

ED - E

EN - E

6th one:

DF - D

DN - D

LW - L

LE - L

WF - W

WD - W

ED - E

EW - E

NL - N

NE - N

FL - F

FN - F

7th one:

LE - L

LW - L

DN - D

DF - D

NE - N

NL - N

FL - F

FN - F

WD - W

WF - W

ED - E

EW - E

8th one:

LF - L

LW - L

DN - D

DE - D

NF - N

NL - N

EL - E

EN - E

WD - W

WE - W

FD - F

FW - F

The first one has it's weakness, NF with N damage and LF F. the other have other weaknesses that are worse imo.. What do ye others think?

[holepercent]

i shall try the combinations with my elemental types damage build list and see which gives the most 'balanced' result..

and now i see the greater significance of the 3-ele builds balancing in elemental damage.. in 4 ele builds with 3elements maxed out giving 3 tier3 duals. for my build project i ran into some of those problems where the key duals all had one damage type with no 'decent' cover, leading to mass leaks against weakness.

some of the original changes were made based on the list in that thread..

switching elements of towers at this stage probably disrupts the balance too much.. triple switching can lead to some problems but probably can be balanced out against the lists..

[jolin012]

well, these should be balanced as soon as the towers are balanced.

but as for which ones that have a good cover aginst the other dmg dual, I can not promise any exact perfect balance because the eles for dmg go in the circle F>N>E>L>D>W> which means - the sup duals should be FL, ND and EW but they are not. meaning in 3eles with EF or WN there is a good chance that they can cover each other (as fire covers earth). same for WN(where W covers N). but a lower chance for good cover builds in LD(light doesn't cover Dark, although it's easier to kill the darkness lvl 2/3 eles). But - I do not sugguest to chang ethe elemental combinations of support towers in 4.0

[Guest Sancdar]

So...is anything happening with this? It's been a month and we still have Ice and Poison doing basically the same thing.

[Karawasa]

The reason I proposed my change is as follows:

Poison = D = AoE for Darkness is unique, fixes Ice/Poison redundancy

Magic = F = Single for Fire is unique

Kindle = W = Redundant with Tornado, but not as bad because dual/triple instead of dual/dual

More importantly is whether the builds will continue to be balanced regarding damage types.

[jolin012]

um - continue to be balanced reguarding dmg type? isn't that something that it currently is NOT? some 3ele combos have both their dmg duals to the same element type(taking for granted any reasonable 3ele combo to max would be one with 2 dmg duals and one boost dual). like eg current LFE is and if what ye suggested, DWN would be.

Best would be ofc to make it one of teh solutions where all those builds have 2 different dmg types of dmg duals.

I would like what K suggested better than the current, (poisonwater->darkness etc) as soon as i saw tehre is a model for boiling water. (so steam/kindle cold actually be boiling water, not fire.) I saw a hero in dota, named kunka use it. was the boiling thing before the hydro toss.