Thoughts, replay, etc.

[electronX]

Hey!

I'm the mad guy who doesn't want to post in 5 topics so opens a new one. ^^

The game is going in a good direction. Besides getting lost in the build, I enjoyed it!

Probably, and I say it underlined, bold, whatever, it is going to get easier, and with other words, playable at higher difficulties. Good? Bad? Yours to decide.

I had a random short game, and so I have a few things to note:

- 1000 cash is a bit low. I could finish the game, but on not-short I manage 1100 as a minimum. As well as 7-8000 till 30. I always play position 3.

- My conjured Impulse tower started to attack like a nice Poison. I was surprised. At the end of wave 43. Didn't happen again with any other conjured Impulses.

- At level 40 I got my first interest.

- At level 50 I got my 6th element. It's good to have everything, but with the last price change I only used it to upgrade my lvl 1 eletricity towers, otherwise it went waste.

- I had the most trouble with undead levels. I need some more games to tell if it's significant.

- Elements were FEWD,3L,3N. With these towers it was pretty viable (I mean light, nature and life, all of them 1-target and one of them a life-saver). Probably most duals are viable, yet it feels scary.

I see you tried fast mode 350 to 375, then back to 350. If that is considered too easy / hard, respectively, what about 360?

Replay_2008_09_13_1858.w3g

[holepercent]

Position 3 is a medium placement which allows for some interest farming. There is a chance of being flooded at III in a competitive multiplayer game. Beta leaders play at IV V and sometimes even VII.

For undead waves, use splash towers. Undead isn't as difficult as mech. Just need to get used to preparing and building more for it while not overbuilding. (the extra towers can always be sold in random mode). For a good build, you'll need a combination of splash and single target towers as well as both damage towers and support towers. Tier1 support triples are now just 10%..

[Cisz]

What is your reasoning for more than 1000g? We had a discussion about it and did some testing, so 1000g is a solid value.

[dvdlesher]

1000g is a solid value.

Agreed , we were quite happy with that amount of gold for SM

[Karawasa]

What about 6000 for XSM? Did we hit that one right on the first time too?

[Kaini]

1000 Gold in SM is really ok. It is 1040 is you farm the inerst

What about 6000 for XSM? Did we hit that one right on the first time too?

I played some vhx xsm and 6000 is ok. It is possible to build with 6000 Gold a noleak defens at IX. With inerst that is about 6500 Gold.

[holepercent]

Appears that we more or less got the 6000 for xsm right.. averages point to that as a reasonable starting gold.. With decent elements in random mode, a more or less proper defense can be build (able to clear the wave with not too much overkill) but there isn't too much unspent gold..

[electronX]

What is your reasoning for more than 1000g? We had a discussion about it and did some testing, so 1000g is a solid value.

(and for all others)

I forgot one thing: I play hard solo, you play very hard competitive, so more towers, less interest. Pick vs. random may also make a difference.

Anyway, what I wanted to say, is just if I can farm much more money to make endgame easier, I won't choose short mode, even though I really like the idea. Well, that is the price of a shorter fun

I have an idea. We have normal & extreme modes. What about an intermediate, that models competition?

Say, next round upon a time limit? When a level starts, counter sets to 60. When a player kills all mobs and counter is higher than the level default (3 at VH, 6 at H, etc.), counter is set to default. When counter reaches 0, next level starts.

Or, bringing back the "level is considered finished upon first leak" rule?

Again, I mean these as a mode as an alternative to extreme.

[electronX]

Played a whole lot games this weekend. I have some things that came. Just opinions, impressions.

- When a resurrected undead is leaking, it is able to resurrect once more.

- I had trouble with higher level elementals.

- 7 amplified earth had trouble with a light level, on the next level, 8 amplified fire annihilated the earth level. Earth still needs a buff.

- In most games I have interest, level 1 elementals and 1-2 else. I usually die about level 50-55 having tons of level 1 triples, as I can only build a pure elemental and one dual. In 10 games I only got once the opportunity to have a level 2 triple.

Personally I...

- only use Jinx if Nova is unavailable, as I use both towers in the middle of position 5 and Nova is better at endgame with slow.

- miss slow. Hydro, Ice is not slowing anymore. Hydro is especially painful as when it stopped in the air, it fell back onto other units but now it falls back on its own spot. I can only mention Muck & Nova & Storm as slowing towers.

- feel no motivation to build Golems, especially hate their link mode. Level 55+ ability? Costs a lot, no attack, requires 5+ golems close to work well, or alike.

- feel Zealot weak.

- feel that mass super arrows/cannons are much cheaper than using elemental towers. Combined with interest picks and a good average skill to sell some of it, they are a killer strategy till the early 20s.

- think that the removal of *easy* slow-buff-armor combos makes the game terribly hard. I had a game with 5 elements, 2 interest, E3 L2, 1 essence. So I had 3 pure earth, about 20-30 level 2 quarks, and towers really everywhere, mostly triples. I couldn't fight level 60, I simply double-leaked them (like 25+15). (I didn't have any place to build more towers but about 50K unspent gold.) Besides showing Earth's weakness, this battle shows what the new eletd means: it is much more of a DPS game.

[dvdlesher]

At last, a post... It's so quiet lately...

[electronX]

At last, a post... It's so quiet lately...

Yes, there was a serious problem with the forums, but it is back & working now. At least for me ^^

[Guest Timberwolf]

Yeah I think the forum exploded. I haven't been able to access it in days.

[dvdlesher]

Yeah I think the forum exploded. I haven't been able to access it in days.

Call me strange if you want, but I accessed this site daily, but I don't see any problem... (Didn't make any post though...)

[holepercent]

about the down forums.. it was a problem with the default skin. so those using black pearl for their theme managed to access the forums..

undead resserrecting twice has been raised already.

elementals are not too difficult. ask jolin012.

it's true that the old easy slow-armour-buff has been removed. but in its place is more strategies and more playable builds.. that no one build simply owns the game anymore.

[Twilice]

Ehm,.. I use black pearl but I couldn't acces the forums.

[electronX]

undead resserrecting twice has been raised already.

Cool ^^

elementals are not too difficult. ask jolin012.

I'd say, it really depends on the current build. For FWNIF I see no way to get the second fire down, or FLNIF. I know... arrows. If you now the correct amount (say, 24?) and have money to spend on them. If you accept that (earlier) elementals are meant to leak (I don't care about that now, if they leak twice, then they do), then it's okay.

it's true that the old easy slow-armour-buff has been removed. but in its place is more strategies and more playable builds.. that no one build simply owns the game anymore.

What is called strategy? Increasing damage by placement is one strategy, weakening the enemy by slowing / debuffing is another. If you have no weakening, you need more pure damage. It is done now - high level tower prices have been decreased, so that by using high level towers you have the same experience and a faster game. It only suffers if you don't own the high levels, as I usually do on random. Spamming level 1 triples at level 50 is very hard (not cost-effective), at level 55 it's GG.

Now the game is tested for four elements, I really wondered how a terrible microed fast game won VH (pos 45, no slow, selling after interest, building before interest). I think the next task is to test 5, 6 element builds, maybe combined with 2 interest at the start. (Viable till 50.)

EleTD4 still uses EleTD3 pricing, right? That is balanced for slow, debuff, etc. If EleTD4 needs higher DPS, the solution is not to make higher tier towers cheaper but the creeps should yield more gold. Current price multiplier is 2.5x (down from 4x), so when having more elements you must pay about twice the price for the same dps.

[jolin012]

I'd say, it really depends on the current build. For FWNIF I see no way to get the second fire down, or FLNIF. I know... arrows. If you now the correct amount (say, 24?) and have money to spend on them. If you accept that (earlier) elementals are meant to leak (I don't care about that now, if they leak twice, then they do), then it's okay.

I'm not quite sure if you are looking for advice or claiming elementals to be too strong. But if what you say is that builds are varied in terms of how easy they have to hunt down elementals, i agree with you to 100%.

a few water arrows on longpass should take care of it easily, which is definitely the better alternative. if you don't like arrows there are other stuff that should work too. if you play with interest i hope that means you can farm interest a bit, and can afford at least one or 2 impulses for lvl 25. One impulse itself should be able to take care of a frie 2 elemental at level 25, even though it is nature damage. as for the other 3ele build, FLNIF you can (ofc use arrows, else you could) use light towers, life towers,

Another way around the problem is to NOT pick fire as your first tier 2 elemental, and plan your build and element order with care for the elemental hunting, instead of finding the worst possible pick order and trying to play that .

Spamming level 1 triples at level 50 is very hard (not cost-effective), at level 55 it's GG.

congratulations, you got randoomed:) that could happenin in all otehr versions of etd as well. that's why we have same random. a random where everything would be of the same difficulty would be pretty boring imo... like, "whatever is my next element it will grant me one buff of 50% and one new tower to protect me from bosses and mechanicals, aka long range single target."

[electronX]

I'm not quite sure if you are looking for advice or claiming elementals to be too strong. But if what you say is that builds are varied in terms of how easy they have to hunt down elementals, i agree with you to 100%.

Just the latter.

a few water arrows on longpass should take care of it easily, which is definitely the better alternative.

I must have been unlucky, but 12 water arrows on 2 pass (pos 6) didn't work. The case must be that because of the corner the long pass provides more time to do damage than 2 pass. What I only start to realize now.

congratulations, you got randoomed:) that could happenin in all otehr versions of etd as well. that's why we have same random. a random where everything would be of the same difficulty would be pretty boring imo... like, "whatever is my next element it will grant me one buff of 50% and one new tower to protect me from bosses and mechanicals, aka long range single target."

Thanks ;-)

Well, as far as I know, balancing between 3, 4, 5 and 6 element builds is a target (at least, roughly). I just wanted to point it out that the new solution (cheaper upgrades) is not the best direction as it prefers low element count builds (3 element is the best).

Balance is (would be) understandable, after all: by having all the - previously not found, I apologize - buff-debuff things in correct numbers (4 slowing triples, enchantment, polar, whatever more & well-bs) it should be viable. Actually it is, except level 60 (last level, I don't call it a problem). It just needs *much* more money to collect earlier and the ability of using the essences (except earth, now). On hard, it is viable with a good practice. (2+ games/day - viable with short).

[jolin012]

I just wanted to point it out that the new solution (cheaper upgrades) is not the best direction as it prefers low element count builds (3 element is the best).

Woah, that was the biggest and the best change. in PB the prices were lower and the damage lower of tier3. and yes, 4ele and 5ele builds were not as strong. 6ele was the strongest, by far.. with the 6ele build in PB I could own one of the best players around here using only 6 lumber. Therefore this direction, making 4ele stronger and 6ele weaker, was an excellent direction, and we didn't land too bad on our first guess either, making tier3 cheaper and stronger and making triple supporters boost less.

if you claim 4ele is the only unbeatable now, that could be true, but that is mostly because a few of the towers currently work better than others. (for example the triple supporters roots windstorm and corrosion work excellent while enchantment and polar suck big time compared to those). Because some work better, it was easy to pick a 4ele build using those towers, while the 6ele is dependent on towers that are currently not working quite as they should do.

I didn't attempt to sound aggresive or upset, if it looks like it, just please know it ain't true

[electronX]

Woah, that was the biggest and the best change.

Probably

In the meanwhile I figured out why do I think that this change is bad.

1. It is mostly related to random mode.

2. I agree, balance does lie in prices. Said more generally, a 4 element build - usually - contains one buff, while the 6 element build contains all, so with good placement and AoE ratio it is more effective. So, having higher tiers must be compensated. (It is.)

3. Until some point (level 50-55) higher tiers can do serious excess damage what is to be compensated. (It is.)

4. In the name of making the game harder, creep health ratio has been increased and buffs have been seriously reduced. Now, in the name of playability, as creep gold drop is unchanged, prices go down. Simply, it is nothing else, but the effect of real price of damage percentage (macroeconomics ). The game is playable and hard enough (balanced) if all the gold must be spent on towers which can hunt down everything. Creeps got tougher, so either gold must be more or towers cheaper or stronger. It is nothing else but (negative) inflation. Also because of the lesser synergies along towers, their utility is lower, so their real price is higher while the nominal is the same.

Why is 6 element build not working?

- It is not microable. In random, I *always* end up with a full built map. 65+93+4+12+87, this is my growth order.

- Even if microed, it is very hard to get one mob down. Those times one shot does less than 1% of health.

- Damage gets spread. It is extremely visible in case of level 60: the first 3 mobs get hunted and then all others walk around with 50% +-40% health.

- Having some level 2 duals doesn't change much - compared to level 1 triples.

All in short: while a 2 interest, 9 pick, 5-6 element build takes the good 40-60 seconds to hunt a round down, I go to my bed and cry when I watch a 4 element build hunt everything down in less than 20.

Well, for now (this beta) I think I talked a lot, maybe too much, so I finish. I await the next beta with any kind of fixes, and let's see!

[Cisz]

So what about periodics. 2 boosted periodics don't turn the tide a bit for you?

[jolin012]

only had a few mins now, didn't read your entire post yet, just that you say 6ele doesn't work cause you need to fill the map with towers. that sounds weird to me, as maxed triples cost twice as much as maxed duals, so they should only take half the space shouldnt they? as i said my only reason the 6ele doesn't work is cause all supporttowers ain't working, and the game perhaps is too hard. 4ele works great cause some duals are overpowered, like ice and poison.

more text herte to come later perhaps.

[electronX]

So what about periodics. 2 boosted periodics don't turn the tide a bit for you?

If I reach 51 When I do, that helps a lot. That is a biiiig-big barrier.

Probably I'm not completely precise as I often talk about 5 element builds.

Jolin is right in the next post... I'm not only using duals but also the highest available single elementals. Clever sense

I'm trying to figure out, what to do. Also by re-watching replays. I think my playing problem is, that I try to build balanced: if I need 10 more towers, I always add Well & BS to them what slows the upgrade process. (And I often fail the triples, yesterday I was pretty sure Muck is F+D+E or something else and had to sell the dual.) I try to build one kind of tower at a time in masses, and let's see.

My learning curve is toooo slow...

Level 1 triples vs. Level 2 duals vs. Level 3 elementals: Duals & elementals are more dps oriented, so I prefer to have them. (At least, I have a wider range to choose from.) Triples usually have some specialties that start to not work when massed: flamethrower's incinerate is not doubled nor reaches 1% at the end, water splash does 5-10% damage to the creeps, drowning and gold are unlikely to kill, impulse placement is limited, zealot would be nice but just feels weak (slow) now, windstorm doesn't stack (damage maybe does), corrosion doesn't stack, and so on. So I rather build twice as much Magic2, Electricity2 towers, or elementals instead. Some triples are dps, I like them, say: Hail, or the previous version of Golems, and surely more.

[Cisz]

Try jinx, it rocks. And quaker. Impulse and tidal too, but you have to micro those two.

[electronX]

Try jinx, it rocks. And quaker. Impulse and tidal too, but you have to micro those two.

Thanks.

Jinx is cool, though I only use one of that (at P5), otherwise I feel that ineffective.

Quaker is nice, but sometimes the AoE is not working for me (placement for sure). Does it come from the tower, like nova? Is its range 500? Then it is the best in corners' inner spot (say, upper P5).

I like Impulse ^^

How much tidal do you use endgame? As it takes 2 levels to grow up to 10 and the damage is constant.