gwho

tldr loosely speaking, the middle guy to finish. i was inspired by your OP here and came up with a similar idea, but less rigorous https://forums.eletd.com/Next-Wave-Starting...gger-t2520.html

Or rush them at anytime in the game... So in order to rush them, shouldn't they be playing the same difficulty as them? hah yeah, true. the whole point of "the first to kill starts the timer for everyone else" is for competing. not having same difficulty is a big plothole, game hole, w/e hole. should we have another button for "competetive mode"?

smart. it would make things simpler, and appease those that dont like it.

Is this a joke? It just means that "if I'm going to be screwed no matter what I do by having limited damage types, I might as well get a tower that doesn't have any fancy crap on it at the cost of effectiveness". see i think what's "stronger" than other towers should be proportional to the micro requirement.

it simply transfers "punishing the other player" to "being able to kill better yourself". less death, more surviving, but the benefit is maintained. i guess there is a point. i guess if ppl want to do fruit runs, they can just create by themselves. ok.

whatever the percentage is, the thing that matters for balancing purposes is the actual dps that percentage value is, not the percentage it self. (100% efficient damage) * (20%) = typical damage output adjust the theoretical perfect damage output to balance the typical damage output. obtain the typical percentage value thru testing. the difference in damage from typical to theoretical will be the benefit you see by microing. the range of this value shouldn't be extremely large, but since it would require a lot of constant microing, the payoff should be proportional to that.

There has been some issues due to the fact that in pubs someone always finishes really early, and rushes the next wave for everyone else. I think it's also problematic if we have individual starting time b/c then the interest is not at a uniform standard. Using the last guy to finish means everyone else gets a ton more interest, and overall, we have a ton of extra money. probably not desirable either. solution: simply use an average, or so timing to trigger the next wave. if there are 8 ppl, use like the 5th person to finish to start the next wave. if there are 5 ppl in the game, use the timing of the 3rd guy to finish to trigger the next wave.

ok so i've been a broken record about how bad the celery tower is, but i've finally got a good solution problem: - it's peak damage still isn't that great, especially considering that it's a single target tower, and there are plenty of other long range alternatives that do well with no micro. - if you dont' do constant micro, the "average damage" sucks. current dps: maximum 950 minimum 100ish. average 425 ish. _________________________ solution: What if we give this baby an actual role and make give it: really slow attack rate, really high damage, but requires micro. attack speed 4, maximum damage = enough to one-shot a creep until level 20 or so. Damage too high? Not at all. The most damage it could do is 1 shot kill (i.e. infinite damage). Higher damage further simply means up to what level does it start requiring 2 shots or more. what simply means is which level it can 1 shot up to. the lower the attack speed, the less creeps it can kill in a wave. (also keep in mind that you wont be able to do maximum damage the entire time b/c there won't always be a creep at maximum range available.) slower attack speed means less apm requirement. it also means less kills if the tower damage > creep HP. Heck, why dont we actually start differentiating the celery tower from other long range single target towers by making it REALLY slow, and REALLY strong? It will be the tower that "can one shot up to a certain wave level with micro, but is limited in the # of kills it can get in a wave." Now that right there is a niche. Now, in order to prevent this from being only an early game tower, have a little bonus. If you get something at 22 to 21.00001 range (or 22 to 21.5), you will insta-kill the target. This creates a skill gradient, and those that go for the micro challenge will be rewarded, although it will be much more difficult than other micro. if we increase the maximum, that increases the average, and so a really low minimum damage of 100 is no problem. (the problem was that the average and maximum were and still is low, so also having a low minimum just made the tower completely not worth it. With a hi max and a decent average, a super low minimnum is no problem)

if what dg observed is true though, let's give it fire damage. i think that was the original point of this topic haha

yea u miss a few spots, but something like 20% less from perfect is not bad at all. u can boost adjust the numbers so that even without micro it will do good damage. if u DO micro, it will be worth your apm. celery tower, the worst you can do is like 0%, rather than a safe 80%-ish. ur right u wont get 100% efficiency. paths aren't circular, and u can always do better. but there is a sort of safety net with this tower., and if the nubmers are bumpbed, then all is well. it would fit right in the concept of "no micro decent damage, yes micro better damage.

it is once in a while. u set the range and it orbits at that range right? u can constant micro it, but leaving it at a set range in a nice position will do decently, unlike celery tower, which has severely reduced output

yup. that just means u can't rush for it. get it a bit later. not ap roblem. keep in mind you will be compounding that extra money. also, kills in later game give you more, so the percentage based bonus of the wealth/money tower more or less scales or at least has the potential to scale. around level 20-40, the you're getitng around 20-40 extra minerals per kill. multiply that by # of creeps. Then compare that with the money you get from compounding during those waves. for me, i get around 50-100 per interest cycle. not a bad deal at all. and making up for the wealth tower's cost is no criteria. with other towers, you get 0 extra money. to properly compare, you'd have to look at the dps difference (had you spent the money on something other than a wealth tower), to the difference in income you get, plus the effect of compounding that extra amount. you can't say it fails b/c u can't rush for it. i'm pretty confident there is enough time left in the game to increase the net income from getting wealth tower.

i find that laser and phasor tower are gross misnomers. fighter tower, carrier tower, mothership tower, swarm tower, fleet tower, armada tower... with lasers and phasors, you think of... well, lasers and phasors. not fighters. Even if you say the fighters are shooting lasers and phasors... no they're not.

range is adjustible. no, it's not like celerity. with the right position/range u can hit a lot of targets in one sweep. (the spire looks like a gigantic celery. i'm going to call it the celery tower. actually, it looks more like a gigantic protruding hemorrhoid.) plus i'm sure the projectile thing isn't tiny that you have to have it ultra precise. is it out on v0.72? i agree with the OP. why does it seem like none of the replies here even addressed it? fire type. yay

it seems for reason they want all the waves start at all the same time. is there a reason for this? can't it be based individually?

too complicated. is it 1v1 or ffa or what? you'd have to know what element combos and strats. i like. but it would only make sense if it was draft mode all pick mode (not random)

thats the whole point of fast waves right? so that splash towers don't have an absolute advantage against single target towers.

I've been hearing this come up a lot. We've been taking steps to address it (most recently, lengthening the next wave timers a bit). If you have any other thoughts on what could be done, we're definitely open to hearing them couldn't we just have the timer be based on like say, the middle guy's finishing time, rather than the first guy's or last guys?

ya this drives people who want to play harder more seriously to solo play. What should be changed is the next wave timer being dependent on the first guy to finish. have it trigger based on like the middle guy to finish.

This would be kind of cool. Kara? agreed. good idea. note: funny how we seem to be favoring 24/7 micro (impossible and tedious) and zero micro (goes against the "no skill" philosophy) rather than something in between (possible and fun)

I find the tower attack sounds more obnoxious than unit death sounds. it also never stops. If i turn down my volume to lower the attack sounds, i wont be hearing the death sounds anyway. (attack sounds are louder) is there a volume control for towers/creeps/etc specifically (within the editor, not bnet options - i think attack sounds and unit death sounds is lumped into the same control for bnet options)

yes it is very spammy. i like your suggestion. i would say 15% chance or so might be good. or 20% but if its medic death sound, make it play death sound twice for every death

medic death sound for every wave ok, but on a serious note, medic death sound for every wave.

yes, u did mention the critical range. that is extremely true. seige tank tower is just really strong. i'd like to see such kind of towers with lower attack speed and higher damage-per-volley. that always feels more powerful, and it also gives it a potential drawback, since you can miss stuff between longer attack cd's. it acts as a mini-nerf.

generally agree. temporal is trash, but not exactly blitz. i'll use the lower level versions for dps comparison haste (EFW) - when it gets fully charged, it has 1- .88 attack speed, which is 200 / .12 = 1666 dps on a single target. thats basically equivalent to the seige tank tower, cz u can say it averages full damage on 3 targets, and half damage on 2 more. so 400 damage x 4. maybe a bit more. if it hits 2 more targets, or combined with slow. In any case, you can say the dps is comparable to the seige tank tower's dps, except it's focused onto a single target. it has its role and option. i dont see a problem. ephemeral (ENW) now this guy is crap. not only do u have to micro it 24/7, (and even more so b/c it has fast attack speed), but the dps is 560 / .66 = 848 maximum on a single target. im gonna be the broken record player again: if we're going to have towers the REQUIRE 24/7 micro, the dps better damn well be worth the clikcing. the dps of ephemeral should be greater than haste, since haste doesnt really require micro. if haste can achieve dps of 1666 for a good majority of the time, then To make ephemeral tower comparable to haste tower, should have dps of around 2000 or more. or something like that. That makes it around 1300 damage with attack speed of .66. yeah ridiculously large. but that's how it works out. I'd prefer to see Ephemeral and celerity towers with lower attack speed so that even if you have to constantly spam click, there's at least time for you to micro other towers in between volleys. Reduce the spamming requirements by reducing attack speed, and buffing damage-per-shot. Even after that, the overall DPS needs to be boosted. Micro-requirement is a cost. not mineral cost, but cost nonetheless. any such micro justifies compensation in other respects. Adding AOE would reduce the need for ridiculously high damage-per-volley, if you don't want it to be a single target specialist.