What do you think of the ease of access to builds?

[RCDM38]

So I was a fan of ele td during the WC3 days, and part of what brought me back was the endless possibilities to figure out the best build. With the way the leaderboard and the ease of access to replays, I find that element of this game gone. Now it's just copying the first person on the leaderboard (generally the best build) and hope that chaos mode gives you favourable waves.

What's the general opinion around here? 

[holepercent]

The leader board and scoring system has some issues that need to be addressed. Rush mode itself is probably poorly designed and forces players into specific strategies. 

Some towers will need some re-balancing. There will be towers that do well in the early-mid game but are less effective or efficient for the end game.

 

In a stable build, there will be multiple viable strategies for a top score and it would come down to player execution of said strategy of choice.

[Utoko]

I think it is pretty good right now to speed up the balancing. 

I think all 2 Element towers are underpowered except the 3. Buff towers. Nature tower seems too strong and overall the game seems too easy. In my opinion the game should be near impossible to beat on Insane rush. So it doesnt come down to who kills the minions 1sec faster.. 

 

 

IMHO The best player on insane should be able to get to round 52 or something like that.  (doesn't mean that normal should be harder but the hardest mode should be)

[Karawasa]

This is new territory for the game and it is indeed a double edged sword. It's positive in that it reveals flaws in balance and scoring. It's negative in that it may pigeonhole the meta. As we improve the game from leaderboard findings, I believe you will find that overall it is a net positive. Remember, there are still endless possibilities. Once we get the balance/scoring improved this will become more apparent.

[Mangoat]

I think it's too early for the monthly leaderboard resets/balance updates. Considering how fast people figured out the last cheese build and how much faster after the wipe they figured out the new one, I think frequent iterations would be better until all of the obvious glaring issues are hammered out.

One thing that seems obviously limiting right now is that not only rush mode but the speed modifier in general really forces you to go one way with your strategy. Obviously clearing a wave faster should score higher, but right now it scores way, way higher. If the multiplier were lower and frog kills were given a relatively high point value it would even it out for slower builds that focus on multiple slowing towers and AoE, because while they will take longer to clear the main waves they should be able to perform a lot better against frogs if well set up.

[Karawasa]

I agree that we are not yet ready for monthly seasons. The fascinating thing is how quickly issues are revealed due to the leaderboard. We will continue to leverage this agility in the near future.

 

I've mentioned this elsewhere but just in case. Rush/Chaos mode will have their score multipliers removed in the next balance update. Furthermore, additional weight will be given to frogs in the score calculation. To emphasize the desire for a variety of builds, we'll even have a frog leaderboard (where speed is definitely not key).

[TreeSquirrel]

What if builds were hidden from the leaderboard? I think it would encourage people to discuss builds more, rather than just steal what's on the leaderboard. And it would slow down the adoption of an "optimal" build. For balancing purposes, you can still keep the data, just keep it hidden from the average user.

[Utoko]

Keeping the build hidden does nothing. You would need a leaderboard without names  else people will just watch the replays.

[Mangoat]

19 hours ago, Karawasa said:

Rush/Chaos mode will have their score multipliers removed in the next balance update. Furthermore, additional weight will be given to frogs in the score calculation.

Excellent.

[Australian]

Can you actually watch replays from custom games though?

 

Also agree about hiding elements from the LB.

[Black.ttk]

This wont make any difference, since you cant hide your dota profile in reborn

On 03.03.2016 at 0:51 PM, Utoko said:

people will just watch the replays.

 

[shadowart]

Linking your forum account with your steam profile and allowing logged in users to change their leaderboard name would be a nice feature when coupled with hidden builds.

[Kpop fangay]

I find it a little bit stupid but it also lends to the 'speedrun' atmosphere where everyone tries to copy the best. Personally I would like to see a bit more variety in the leaderboards even if people abuse the 3/3 W/N. Its a shame this score couldn't be submitted though.

[Karawasa]

The next version update should introduce far more variety into the leaderboard.

[Noya]

2 hours ago, Kpop fangay said:

Its a shame this score couldn't be submitted though.

On the next update I will try to add a confirmation message on endscreen & resend score attempts until the match is properly received. I don't know what causes the match-drops but it is indeed a shame that some of this legit games are lost, sorry about that!

[Helpstone]

3 hours ago, Noya said:

On the next update I will try to add a confirmation message on endscreen & resend score attempts until the match is properly received. I don't know what causes the match-drops but it is indeed a shame that some of this legit games are lost, sorry about that!

 

I dont think its lost, you can see it in his profile, it just doesnt show on the leaderboard cause its not his best score

[Kpop fangay]

3 hours ago, Noya said:

On the next update I will try to add a confirmation message on endscreen & resend score attempts until the match is properly received. I don't know what causes the match-drops but it is indeed a shame that some of this legit games are lost, sorry about that!

Its just that its bordering impossible to beat the current Water/Nature 3 + Light/Earth 2 build score that I set. It would've been nice to have seen the top 20 scores have some sort of different builds even if it abuses the currently overpowered build path base.

 

If anything it would be nice to have leaderboards for different combinations, this could just be elemental combinations so that you can see who is the best at attempting different strategies since right now you only get rewarded for doing what is the easiest strategy with a lucky spawn pattern such as getting reanimate during peak levels and having basic + weakness spawns towards the end which maximises your points and saved income due to the lack of stress to purchase towers pre-finish.

[Noya]

3 hours ago, Kpop fangay said:

 

...right now you only get rewarded for doing what is the easiest strategy with a lucky spawn pattern such as getting reanimate during peak levels and having basic + weakness spawns towards the end which maximises your points and saved income due to the lack of stress to purchase towers pre-finish.

 

With the removal of Chaos & Rush bonus scoring, getting into the leaderboard will at least be less dependant on luck. Really excited to see what will happen on the next patch, it should be ready tomorrow~sunday hopefully!

[Kpop fangay]

9 hours ago, Noya said:

 

With the removal of Chaos & Rush bonus scoring, getting into the leaderboard will at least be less dependant on luck. Really excited to see what will happen on the next patch, it should be ready tomorrow~sunday hopefully!

If Rush scoring is no longer becoming a bonus would it be possible to implement a 'next level' button that skips the 'remaining' seconds of the income timer? I'm not entirely sure but it sounds like games will possibly be lasting 10-20% longer without it. Again I have no clue how flexible the game engine is with timers so i'll leave it up to you to decide whether or not its worth looking into, i'm just a hardware junkie that plays games so anything that involves a tiny bit of code is out of my field of knowledge.

[Utoko]

I am excited too and I am hoping the game gets a little harder on insane with the new balance changes.

[Noya]

8 hours ago, Kpop fangay said:

If Rush scoring is no longer becoming a bonus would it be possible to implement a 'next level' button that skips the 'remaining' seconds of the income timer? I'm not entirely sure but it sounds like games will possibly be lasting 10-20% longer without it. Again I have no clue how flexible the game engine is with timers so i'll leave it up to you to decide whether or not its worth looking into, i'm just a hardware junkie that plays games so anything that involves a tiny bit of code is out of my field of knowledge.

It can be done but I'm sure there's balance implications (Haste tower for example) and of course not really valid for multiplayer games. Games without Rush will last longer, and probably the strategies will be slower (because now there's a networth bonus at the end of the game, so interest is more important)

[Kpop fangay]

13 minutes ago, Noya said:

It can be done but I'm sure there's balance implications (Haste tower for example) and of course not really valid for multiplayer games. Games without Rush will last longer, and probably the strategies will be slower (because now there's a networth bonus at the end of the game, so interest is more important)

Is the networth bonus going to work off your total build worth + current gold when level 55 ends? If so then I can see lots of long range strategies becoming popular to stall out a large portion of the early levels, this doesn't mean its a bad thing but it does add a bit more diversity than the powerhouse 700/900 range towers sitting near the spawn raking up speed bonus.

[Noya]

Yes, you'll have to trade-off Fast clear bonus with Interest gain, I think that was the idea behind the change (keep in mind I'm not the main man behind the balance updates )

[Utoko]

I don't like the spawn kill strategy right now but I think that is only a problem because the game is too easy(until frogs). So you dont even need to use good positions on the map for your towers. 
 

I really hope the net-worth Bonus doesn't beat out the speed bonus. So you have to drag out every wave as long as possible for interest gain. 

I think it would be way better to give the frogs at the end more value(more gold=more frog kills)instead of forcing players too drag out the game but lets test it first. ;o

I also think rush mode is a good mode. Just increase the time between the Frog waves.