What we like and don't like

[Karawasa]

Gunpowder is getting replaced with what is essentially a cluster bomb ability.

[Twilice]

Sounds interesting how would it work?

[Karawasa]

Sounds interesting how would it work?

Tower launches a projectile to where it attacks, and that projectile explodes and does damage. Then the projectile breaks into 3 more projectiles that fall randomly in an area around the original and they explode too.

[dvdlesher]

Like Kardel (DoTA, the sharpshooter) skills?

[holepercent]

interesting.. but why does gunpowder need to be replaced? i feel it's one of the utility towers we need.. a dual with no abilites just damage.. the long-range damage was something that had its uses in builds.. the forum draft saw some decent use of mortar towers..

[Cisz]

Even more: We are still in need of tower replacements. Jinx, ice, quantum, poison, flame, disease, trickery, all don't work (or work too well in case of ice and flame). So why waste a new idea to get rid of one of the towers that is working?

Gunpowder might need some changes: Imo we should get rid of the splash increase, and I am still not entirely conviced of the whole concept of longrange. (So far only impulse has my vote.)

[dvdlesher]

@ Cisz : Quantum...?

[jolin012]

Quantum is a tower:) It requires alot of micro to work at all, and around max 4 can be used successfully that way

[dvdlesher]

You mean quark? That confuses me, hehe

[jolin012]

oh yes, you're absolutly right. I guess quantum was an older beta's name for the tower.

[Karawasa]

Even more: We are still in need of tower replacements. Jinx, ice, quantum, poison, flame, disease, trickery, all don't work (or work too well in case of ice and flame). So why waste a new idea to get rid of one of the towers that is working?

Gunpowder might need some changes: Imo we should get rid of the splash increase, and I am still not entirely conviced of the whole concept of longrange. (So far only impulse has my vote.)

Gunpowder still has 1500 range.

Quantum, Disease, Trickery (maybe, check other thread), and Jinx (maybe) all have suitable replacements.

Not sure what is wrong with Poison. As for Ice and Flame, are they really that problematic? Will build balance be dramatically off with them?

[jolin012]

As for Ice and Flame, are they really that problematic? Will build balance be dramatically off with them?

To speak honestly and clearly... yes, pretty much for sure.

[Cisz]

And for poison: It's underpowered, and muck is too strong. See here for details.

[dvdlesher]

Ooh, so that's why you guys says "quantum"... I became a beta tester recently, so i didn't know about older version beta..

I agree with Cisz, poison/pollution is much weaker than muck.

Quantum, Disease, Trickery (maybe, check other thread), and Jinx (maybe) all have suitable replacements.

Ahh, those towers got replacement..?

Not sure what is wrong with Poison. As for Ice and Flame, are they really that problematic? Will build balance be dramatically off with them?

Problematic..? Or weak...?

[Cisz]

@lesher

Flame and ice are problematic because they are too strong. Both towers are support towers, that is, using these makes all other towers stronger. Let me explain the concept:

If you build a zealot, you get 1 zealot and nothing else.

But if you build a nova, the creeps will be slowed down, so all zealots near the nova can fire longer at the creeps. Or take well: One well will make 4 towers 25% stronger. So support towers boost all other towers. If you have 20k gold worth of damage towers and add a zealot, you have 21.5k in towers. If you add 3 wells instead, you have (20k * 1.25) + 1.5k = 26.5k gold worth of towers for the price of 21.5k.

Ice and flame are support towers, because they slow single targets. Using them makes the creeps clump a bit, as some single creeps fall back a bit, creating clumps of creeps. And that increases the power of all splash towers. Also they decrease the overall speed of the wave a bit, giving all towers, splash or not, longer time to fire. They rock especially when used against few targets, so they help alot when used to catch leaks. On top of that, flame has a damage increase debuff. So all creeps hit by a flame get more dmg (5/10/20%).

But the map has a tight plan for support towers: 3 duals and 8 tripples are support. The dual support has to be significantly stronger than the tripples (exact numbers are under construction). And the towers have predefined locations in the build (that is, we planned which towers can be support and which can't). Flame and ice are on non support slots. They might try to look harmless by only giving an estimate 5-30% boost (depending on level and usage), but work like support nonetheless.

So yes, they mess with the ballance of the map, giving all builds they are in a +X% boost. And that is precisely what the new tower distribution is all about: 3 + 8 boost, all others damage only.

[dvdlesher]

Whew, kinda complicated althrough I got your explanation about creep clumping...

Hmm, I always underestimate those towers... Next time, I won't do it again

[holepercent]

ice and flame can be strong towers, for the slow and the damage(ice) and damage amplification(flame)..

not everything is easily understood by the casual player.. these are more for leads to discuss and think about and balance..

after some review (from my tourney guide), i do realise how much flame and ice actually screw up the build balance.. there are extra 'support' towers which further strengthen certain builds while leaving a few builds too far behind in terms of support vs damage..

But if ice and flame are removed, we are left without any single-target slow in the map. (correct me if i'm wrong).. i do feel ST slow has its usefulness.. especially given the balance between splash and single-target towers as well as the new mechnical..

[dvdlesher]

But if ice and flame are removed, we are left without any single-target slow in the map. (correct me if i'm wrong).. i do feel ST slow has its usefulness.. especially given the balance between splash and single-target towers as well as the new mechnical..

True indeed

But some towers can't buffed with blacksmith/well tower, no? (Roots, nova, windstorm, minion, etc...)

[jolin012]

true, but I do hope that all damage towers such as oblivion are fixed to work with smith and well soon enough, preferably a shot at it for the coming beta Supporttowers have been somewhat decided not to be supportable (simply because for example winstorm would need a great rework to make buffable.

[m0rph1ing]

It seems that after removing all the single target slows, the only slows left in the game will be the 4 major aoe slow triples. Hopefully this doesn't make the game too difficult and doesn't invalidate the 4 element builds that do not have an aoe slow triple.

[holepercent]

losing single-target slows is a loss to the game.. but at this moment there is no way to fit any single-target slows in without disrupting the 3+8 balance.. ST slow had its place in some builds..

we have 2 builds with 2 aoe slow towers available, 8 with 1 aoe slow available and 5 builds with no aoe slow triples. that is some form of balance there.

the next beta all non-support towers, (all towers except the 3+8) should work with well and blacksmith correctly.. this will help to keep the builds more even..

[dvdlesher]

Do you guys have a replay that uses ice/flame tower...?

I really want to see the "usefulness" of these tower on game...

[Cisz]

I used flame in the double no leak replay (1.21b) to catch leaks and to increase my slowing and damage. I think I targeted the burning creeps with my impulse.

[dvdlesher]

Gotcha!

Well, It's time to use WC3 Version Switcher!!

[Guest Vigi-]

Remake oblivion!