BIG balance problems

[Guest Darkever00]

While I am very pleased on the cosmetics of EleTD4.1 (I liken the old yellow terrain much more btw!!!), I can't say the same about towers.

I made some statistics, counting number of attacks each tower can do on average each 'lap', and calculating average damages.

NOTE: All towers were placed where they can be be most effective. Most of them on the long pass on the right ledge, a bit south of the middle to allow long ranged ones (1100 and 900) to hit bottom lane. Some towers like Radius, Vapor, Tidal, Nova were put middle, where their global effet is stronger. Only lv1 towers were used.

I found out some of them are incredibly weak, and some others are ridiculously strong.

Here's the list and the reasons (green ones need only small changes, red ones urge big buffs/nerfs):

Disease - In beta version this was crap, now it's ridiculously powerful. The first units in line are usually killed quite easily (so corpses are available immediately), and each explosion deals an average of 5000 damage!!! Lower explosion damage from 1000 to 750.

Poison - It hits 4-10 units on each shot, but the damage is far too low. Increase damage from 250 to 300.

Hydro - A bit weak compared to most of other AoE towers. Buff AoE damage from 1000 to 1250/1500.

Electricity - Its overall damage is lower than most towers, even supposing it hits all target every time. Increase initial damage from 333 to 363 (you like number 3 right? )

Flame - Its overall damage is very low. If that wasn't bad enough, being damage over time, most of it is not dealt if the unit dies sooner. I see continuously this tower attack a unit 2-3 times when a single attack would be enough to kill it after 5 seconds. Buff damage from 120 to 150.

Vapor - It plainly sucks, like it did in the beta. Increase damage from 150 to 175/200.

Ice - This tower is very cool, but doesn't always work fine. Increase final AoE damage from 250 to 500.

Flamethrower - Overall damage is not great, especially compared to monsters like Hail or Drowning. Increase damage from 1200 to 1500, and make buff last 3 seconds.

Roots - Damage from multiple hits, even from different towers, DO NOT STACK! And 7% slow is really pitiful. Currently, probably the worse tower around. Make it stack, OR increse damage from 450 to 750, OR increase damage to 600 and slow from 7% to 12%

Muck - Ah sorry, I forgot about Muck... this is even worse. With the worse damage among towers, and an unnoticeable 7% slow. Increase AoE of damage from 150/300 to 250/500, and maybe it'll be worth something.

Radius - This was heavily underpowered in 4.0, but I still have to test it in 4.1

Corrosion - Here's another tower which damage doesn't stack and armor reduction isn't enough to be effective. Make damage stack, OR increase damage from 500 to 700, OR increase armor penality from -2 to -3.

Enchantment - Very similar to Corrosion, just a bit worse. Increase damage from 930 to 1630. I know it's a big huge, but this tower really does a ridiculous damage, even compared to other debuffing towers.

Nova - Low damage and 7% slow is about nothing. Increase damage from 800 to 1000-1100.

Storm - Not sure about this one. Maybe it's a bit weak, especially considering it has to be guided manually to get a decent result.

That's all. I want to stress that these consideration were reached with both analysis and play, and not just because of some feeling. To tell the truth, before making these statistics, I tought Disease was still sucky... I were pleased by this discovery!

[Twilice]

Supporting towers are not supposed to deal great amount of damage. More to support the other towers you already have.

I don't know about the stacking problem though.

It is good that you make such a thing like this, but think about it. If you nerf diseases AoE damage (which is partly the only damage it got) It would be (1000-750)*5*5 = which is a over 6000 damage in nerf while the tower itself now deals 1000*5*5 = 25000.

I don't dissagre with you on some towers, but the numbers should be changed more carefully.

[jolin012]

Ah - balance. I like that you think about balance, and do this report - it's good for us to look into it again, cause we do care about balance, even though it doesn't seem like you think we did a good job maybe we didn't. But I doubt that you are right at all points.

Disease has to have greater damage than the average since it doesn't stack. each corpse can only be exploded once, meaning you can only have maybe one or 2 of this tower. so, unless it has more damage than the average it would be a waste to have it in your build.

corrosion, nova, enchantment, storm, muck, roots (also voodoo and polar that you didn't bring up) are as 13est mentioned, support towers. Support towers have lower damage than damage towers(non-support towers) but boost the rest of your defense. this means, these are more of late-game towers. if you remember the 4.0 public beta, where the 6element build with a whole lot of support towers, was the one and only best build due to so many support towers.. well it still has as many support towers almost, but they are weaker now. yes, 7% at level 1. Try opening with damage towers only, and adding support towers maybe from wave 40 and later.

As for the rest of the towers that you claim to suck compared to others - do you have a replay file where you are comparing them? I believe that you still might be using them wrong cause I can't imagine we balanced that badly

Roots damage stacking I probably agree with you and also corrosion since all other towers' damage stacks. dunno wether it's possible or not, but probably so since flame was possible to stack.

anyway, thanks alot for reporting. looking forward to a response if you do have a replay.

[Cisz]

Disease - In beta version this was crap, now it's ridiculously powerful. The first units in line are usually killed quite easily (so corpses are available immediately), and each explosion deals an average of 5000 damage!!! Lower explosion damage from 1000 to 750.

Try to win a game with disease as a dmg tower. You can race a few waves, and then? Nobody ever managed to put it to use mid- or lategame.

Electricity - Its overall damage is lower than most towers, even supposing it hits all target every time. Increase initial damage from 333 to 363 (you like number 3 right? )

You are aware that this tower has 1100 range and can hit 1-2 outer lanes from the middle?

Flame - Its overall damage is very low. If that wasn't bad enough, being damage over time, most of it is not dealt if the unit dies sooner. I see continuously this tower attack a unit 2-3 times when a single attack would be enough to kill it after 5 seconds. Buff damage from 120 to 150.

I have a feeling this one is true, but I'm not sure.

Radius - This was heavily underpowered in 4.0, but I still have to test it in 4.1

I used it loads in 4.0, and it rocks.

[Guest Darkever00]

It is good that you make such a thing like this, but think about it. If you nerf diseases AoE damage (which is partly the only damage it got) It would be (1000-750)*5*5 = which is a over 6000 damage in nerf while the tower itself now deals 1000*5*5 = 25000.

I calculated that Disease attacks on average 23 times in a 'lap'. Each attack deals (500*1)+(1000*5)=5500, for a total of average 126k damage in one lap. Ok, probably it won't make a corpse explode every time, and not every explosion will get 5 units, but consider that the 2-element tower in 2nd place for damage after Disease is Gunpowder with 'only' 96k. For comparison, Life deals 47k and Blacksmith does 34k (they are the easier to calculate).

Disease has to have greater damage than the average since it doesn't stack. each corpse can only be exploded once, meaning you can only have maybe one or 2 of this tower. so, unless it has more damage than the average it would be a waste to have it in your build.

This is true for almost all support towers. Currently it's useless to have more than 1 root/corrosion/muck/nova and more than 2 polar/enchantment. With these ammount you can debuff all enemies, and use gold for towers with higher dmg. Blacksmith/well/trickery are a different thing because they depend on the number of towers you build (each can support 5/6 towers on average).

corrosion, nova, enchantment, storm, muck, roots (also voodoo and polar that you didn't bring up) are as 13est mentioned, support towers. Support towers have lower damage than damage towers(non-support towers) but boost the rest of your defense. this means, these are more of late-game towers.

Yeah, I know support towers are great (and I remember building tons and tons of slowing towers in 3.0), but there are too many difference between them. It's ok for them to be weaker that damage-only towers because they support, but some of them are really too weak. I didn't forget about polar and vodoo, I didn't list them simply because their damage is ok.

Here's a list of total damage (in one lap) for towers.

I listed only towers easier to calculate:

Polar: 230k

Vodoo: 198k

Roots :135k

Muck :102k

Corrosion: 150k

Enchantment: 109k

Nova: 168k

Hail: 322k

Oblivion: 300k (more with manual control)

Quaker: 333k

Flesh Golem: 272k (and much more with manual control)

Gold: 290k (and also has a nice)

These numbers do not take into account armor reduction, slow, or anything that can't be directly converted in damage.

I didn't make comparisons between effectiveness of abilities (I also have a life ), but we can see that towers with similar effects (corrosion-enchantment, muck-nova) have very different values.

As for the rest of the towers that you claim to suck compared to others - do you have a replay file where you are comparing them? I believe that you still might be using them wrong cause I can't imagine we balanced that badly

I can post replays, but it could be quite boring (both for me making all the tests again and for you to watch :-P).

The best way to test them is probably against bandits at lv22 in h/vh mode. Don't spend any wood until lv20, save just before lv21, so you have time to summon/kill all elements you need and build a single tower you want to test.

Roots damage stacking I probably agree with you and also corrosion since all other towers' damage stacks. dunno wether it's possible or not, but probably so since flame was possible to stack.

If I'm not wrong, damage from Root and Corrosion stacked in 3.0 (or I am confusing it with 4.0beta?). Well, they really were deadly then... probably too deadly.

Btw balance is not bad... only 'bad' 5 towers on 35 is quite good! (green ones are not big problems... fixes I proposed for them are quite small)(Just realized Nova's damage is not as bad as I tought).

Thx for taking my suggestions into consideration!

[Guest Darkever00]

Try to win a game with disease as a dmg tower. You can race a few waves, and then? Nobody ever managed to put it to use mid- or lategame.

You are aware that this tower (Electricity) has 1100 range and can hit 1-2 outer lanes from the middle?

I used it (Radius) loads in 4.0, and it rocks.

Disease: I found it very useful even in midgame (obviously upgraded). The main problem with it is to kill the first 2/3 creeps, so it can begin to trigger explosions that weaken next creeps. Some single-target towers are needed for this: massing AoE won't make Disease good (half-dead units do not explode, even if there are 30 of them!)

Electricity: To tell the truth I didn't tested it building it in center. I usually put 1100 towers the middle-lower part of right edge, so they can target the bottom-right angle. If the number of attacks increase, I'll have to retest all 1100 range towers. Btw this was a 'green problem'... not a big deal.

Radius: I usually put it in the center. It's basically an advanced Vapor: good at the beginning but worthless after a while. Probably it can deal more damage when manually controlled, but I've no patience to manually change the range at each wave! XD

[Cisz]

About life tower: Do you play them at 5? Gold tower? Electricity? Mushroom? You are aware of the 1100 range placement, right?

And about hail: Are the extra shoots wasted if there is only one target? If so, hail has the worst kind of damage and needs to be stronger.

[Twilice]

Try using only hail vs bosses. Not a big succes.

Each creep can only be hit by 1 attack at a time. But 5 creeps can be attacked at the same time with the ability.

So on a single creep the extra attacks will be wasted.

P.S.

Did you test all towers in solo? Because towers are being tried to be balanced competiotion wise.

Since some towers are easier to rush with (quaker, quark for example) Since they have a very short range. But if they will lose their advantage if you start leaking 1-3 creeps at a time.

The 1500 range towers are usually more powerfull, but it's harder to rush and you can be rushed easier.

[holepercent]

Also testing towers by themselves isn't that good an idea of balance.. support towers are not meant to solo waves.. build them after the main damage is in play..

some of the towers mentioned are strong in the right build with the right support.. as mentioned, doubt we balanced that bad.. some of the numbers are too extreme, in the betas, they have proved overpowered..

and some towers do need to be mircoed.. if the flame tower fires 2-3 times at the same creep and that damage is wasted, then you need to mirco it to change targets frequently or use the short-pass placement..

[Guest Darkever00]

About life tower: Do you play them at 5? Gold tower? Electricity? Mushroom? You are aware of the 1100 range placement, right?

And about hail: Are the extra shoots wasted if there is only one target? If so, hail has the worst kind of damage and needs to be stronger.

I usually place 1100 towers between 6 and 9, but probably you're right that on 5 they can do better. I simply never tought about it before. Usually I use 5 for 1500 towers or stuff like Vapor (Vapor sucks so I never use it anyway ). About Hail, considering how close units are to each other and its range, it's very rare to hit only one or two units.

Try using only hail vs bosses. Not a big succes.

Bosses are hardly any challenge in 4.1 in my opinion, except in random if you get Magnataur on level 30. And even then, it's 3 lifes each time it passes. Not too harsh.

Also testing towers by themselves isn't that good an idea of balance.. support towers are not meant to solo waves.. build them after the main damage is in play.

And some towers do need to be mircoed.. if the flame tower fires 2-3 times at the same creep and that damage is wasted, then you need to mirco it to change targets frequently or use the short-pass placement..

I'm fully aware of that. I did tests in solo mode with a single tower because it's impossible to determine objective values using multiple ones. Separate, simplify, analyze, and only then merge together. It's the modern scientific method. If I put my head into it, I probably can even convert abilities in some kind of damage (for example giving -2 armor means subtracting 12% HP from the total EffectiveHP of a unit), but I don't have the will to do all that stuff just for a game...

Btw, it's reasonable and right for support towers to have lower damage (I already said it in a previous post), but I feel some of them have a really LOW dmg.

[holepercent]

In testing, some of the theoratical balance numbers turned out to be quite wrong.. the theory can only be a guide on balance.. testing just one tower by itself would not lead to balance.. the game is much focused on combinations. all towers can be strong with the right support, or at least that is the aim of balance.. at the same time, there should not be a tower that is too strong and dominates every game..

extensive playtesting is still better but it is time consuming.. play all the 4-element, 5-element and 6-element builds, all 22 of them, making sure you go through every tower at least once (which was done in beta).. or a few hundred -vhsr games, to ensure every tower has a chance to see play..

in beta, some did individual tower tests, then the results were combined and compared with build tests played by others..

of course, any balance suggestions should be looked into and tested out..

and no, you would not get a tier3 elemental at wave 30.. if you did, it's a bug.. the first tier2 elemental is summoned not earlier than wave 20 and the first tier 3 not earlier than wave 40...

[Guest Darkever00]

and no, you would not get a tier3 elemental at wave 30.. if you did, it's a bug.. the first tier2 elemental is summoned not earlier than wave 20 and the first tier 3 not earlier than wave 40...

Uh, didn't know about this.

Is there also a level after which no more lv1 elements are summoned? If not, it could be an idea for next version.

Getting a lv1 element at levels 40-55 is quite annoying. Ok, with all elements you can build Periodic, but that means having few (or even none!) high level towers at late levels! Sure, there is more variety, but most of them are usually not neeeded.

[PunKZ]

Well I can agree with you on the Flame tower, it actually sucks... every time I use it I wish I never used it...

[Brule]

and i agree with you on Vapor, is really uselles after early game, even at tier3 only do little damage

tier3 Dual should be the same dps as tier 2 triples, just like tier 3 supports duals, are same/better than tier 2 triple supports

[m0rph1ing]

I agree on flame being weak. Vapor seems like it's best tower placements are usually taken by other towers (nova, windstorm, impulse, tidal). I think tier 3 Duals will be getting a nerf soon. They are significantly better than tier 2 triples in terms of dps/gold.

[Brule]

I agree on flame being weak. Vapor seems like it's best tower placements are usually taken by other towers (nova, windstorm, impulse, tidal). I think tier 3 Duals will be getting a nerf soon. They are significantly better than tier 2 triples in terms of dps/gold.

SUPPORT DUAL are stronger than SUPPORT TRIPLE, the damage duals, are really worse than Damage Triples

[jolin012]

no, damage duals ARE stronger than damage triples (when damage duals are tier 3)