[beta 20] My opinion...

[dvdlesher]

Wow, beta 20 makes a big difference on creep HP..

I just checked using wave 41:

- on beta19, the creep HP was 20020 (or around that)

- on beta20, the creep HP was 46900

Its like 2.5x creep HP of 19th beta... And it's only wave 41, not on wave 60. It scared me actually

IMO, it's too much...

And... I think hydro erupt damage should be buffed slightly. Maybe 1100 or 1200.

PS:Just because the topic is "My opinion..." doesn't mean everybody is disallowed to post here. Everyone are welcomed to post your opinion.

[Karawasa]

As posted in other thread, B19 creep HP is 40040...

[dvdlesher]

Really..? I'm so sorry guys, I think my eyes are flickering... I'm so ashamed

[Karawasa]

Don't worry about it.

[Guest Timberwolf]

Even if the difficulty boost isn't as much as he thought, I still think this feels a lot like a map where the goal currently seems to be turning interest abuse into the only remaining viable strategy, other than mass slowing.

[Karawasa]

Even if the difficulty boost isn't as much as he thought, I still think this feels a lot like a map where the goal currently seems to be turning interest abuse into the only remaining viable strategy, other than mass slowing.

I am a bit confused about your post. To clarify, are you talking specifically about difficulty (creep hp), or more? If more, could you elaborate?

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

maybe he means to say that the creep hp boost was high enough such that playing a game as before is impossible, so now you have to either use underhanded tactics (leaking 1 creep and waiting for interest to accumulate, maybe combined with life towers), or play very very slowly (don't play at 4/5, use a lot of slowing, take as much time as possible to allow interest to accumulate).

???

[Guest Sancdar]

I thought it was decided like a year ago that the average b-net player should be able to play on normal difficulty, and very hard should in fact be very hard to beat.

[Lizarb]

took me 20-30 attempts before I started beating normal diff, extra short. Can mainly complete normal diff it if I get level 2-3 tri-tower.

Had a Soul Catcher + waterfall game that bugged out after 700+ ronalds yesterday.

[Guest Void]

To be totally honest, I think increasing the creep HP is a stupid way to make the game harder. I would prefer more different ability waves.

[jolin012]

um... why? I think the ability waves were about enough much harder than the regular waves, but overall the game got too easy.

[dvdlesher]

um... why? I think the ability waves were about enough much harder than the regular waves, but overall the game got too easy.

What? Too easy? Even with increased HP now?

[Cisz]

I think we can't have more ability waves. Remember: We allready have mech, undead, healing, fast, normal. And 6 eles + composite, that's a total of 5*7= 35 different waves. You have to remove the first 5 waves from the total of 60, so we have 55 waves for 35 wavetypes. We can't have all of them even twice.

If we add just one more mode, we end up with 6*7= 42 different types, so if we have each once, we just have 55 - 42 = 13 waves for repeating the normal elemental waves.

And no, I'm not interested in more waves than 60, we are allready too long.

[jolin012]

What? Too easy? Even with increased HP now?

what I meant was that before the creep hp increase, the game was too easy. not that it is now too easy. But also I misunderstood Void I think. i misread "more different ability waves", into "more difficult ability waves".

about more different ability waves hmm.. aren't there enough allready? or do we want more thinking? I think there is enough to learn allready with the healing and fast and meh and undead for now.. but that is just my opinion.

[dvdlesher]

Aaah, so that's what you meant, Jolin... I was afraid that I'm the only one who thinks that Beta20 are xtremely hard now

Maybe we should at least hear the new idea for the "different" ability wave. Who knows it'll turn out better. Although IMO, the idea is almost impossible to be accepted, especially when Jolin and Cisz says so.

But again, who knows? maybe it will be used as a brand new idea on "eleTD 5"?

So... Post some idea, Void?

[Guest Timberwolf]

I am a bit confused about your post. To clarify, are you talking specifically about difficulty (creep hp), or more? If more, could you elaborate?

Every single damage tower in the game has been nerfed at least once during re-design. Slows have been made to slow less. Creep hitpoints have been ramped, and re-vamped. Then the kicker was upping the cost of pures to the point that the only people who can afford them are people who were already beating the game without one, in other words they no longer level the playing field, they only tilt it entirely in favor of the experts even further than the map is already tilting.

Essentially, the map has become exactly what I warned it was going to several months ago if you look back: a Ninja Gaiden Black of TD maps, where it's become more about making the map "hard" for a very small handful of experts that have crushed this map inside and out 10 000 different ways that have this site as their personal forum to say difficulty = everything, at the expense of the map being "fun" for normal human beings who are 90% of your core audience who really couldn't give a pile of hard cheese about VH, VHEX, or VHEXSR.

Private Beta 21 on normal is probably about as hard as 4.0 Public Beta from months ago on Very Hard. I mean it's not a straight line comparison, but it's relatively close at this point. It's a lot harder but it's also a map that is entirely more frustrating to anyone that doesn't want to put in hours upon hours to find (what is rapidly becoming) the one and only "right" way to play that will actually get you near the finish line.

If that's what you want the map to be, that's fine. Obvioulsy with the majority of your beta testers being the difficulty at all costs = good crowd, I'm in a very small minority among your testers in thinking this is overall not something that is going to help you in the long run. There's nothing wrong with going the difficulty = everything route if you don't mind cannoning a big chunk of your casual audience to appease a dozen VHEXSR ronald hunters, and the seriously hardcore TD crowd. I'm just saying the map feels like it's becoming much less accessible to the "average gamer" and much more of a "hardcore specialist" map. Again, if that's what you want, that's fine. It's not what I would do, but it's not my map either.

It's still a good map, one where the effort being put into it shows, it's a high quality piece of work as far as homebrew gaming goes maybe the best in the world, it's just a very different one from what it used to be.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

you' re not as alone as you may think....

I haven't vocalized this quite as much, but i still think that since the creep hp increase things have been way too hard. I tried a VHAP game and even with save/load I didn't finish. Pures are weird now as I found that as soon as I got a pure + maxed support dual it owned everything so hard to the point where nothing else mattered.

I don't understand why lvl 1 support triples were nerfed AGAIN to 6%, isn't this getting a little ridiculous? Yes I do appreciate that the 6-element build is no longer strongest (yay!) but really now...

[Cisz]

I disagree, and here is why:

This map is going to be a ladder map soon. And a ladder map is not ballanced for the beginners, it has to work on the top level. Very hard has to be tough on the best players, cause we don't want every match to go to ronald. Imagine someone asking icefrog to nerf dota, because most players find it to hard. Sounds rediculous, right? And more and more people beat the 4pb consistantly on vh. The masses are catching up on the new diff level.

Besides, the 21 is much easier than the 20. If you have problems beating the map, maybe it's because you use tactics that worked on the 3.0, or the pb, like first triple support, or slow/splash only. Try going zealot as a first tripple instead, and delay tripple support for late midgame; only use dual support early on. Have you tried that? I have problems getting rid of that bad habbit too.

About the tripple support on level 1: A 6 ele build has them all, and they don't add, they multiply. So a 222221 build gets +50% for the last level 1 alone (4 support tripples, 7%, and one support dual, 15%; that's 1.07^4 * 1.15 = 1.5). So what do you have to offer for 4 ele builds to counter the massive power of 4 lv.1 tripples? (They alone do 30% bonus.) We need to have absurdly high maxed dual support to counter it. "Absurdly" because it allows a player to go 3-3 at level 30 and to max a support dual early, and actually win with that.

When we raise lv1 tripple support, we need to raise maxed dual support lategame, which results in a messed up midgame. We could very well end up with a game were the only winning option is to go 3-3. The other extreme would be a map where the only winning build is 222221. Jolin suggests a dual support with variable boost, like for example +5% per wave (300% on level 60, but only 150% on level 30), which would counter this problem. Maybe that sollution is a bit akward or too complicated, although I like and support it.

If you feel that tripple support is too weak on level 1 (and I agree with you on that), please provide a sollution that doesn't overpower 5 and 6 ele lategame or 4 ele midgame.

Thank you.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

yes, the increased difficulty is actually not THAT bad. i'm merely used to looking at "noleak" as being the ideal goal, rather than completion. the 4.0pb was definitely too easy though, for sure.

i need to try more stuff before i can fully evaluate the latest beta.

i dont think variable boost is the answer.

i do feel like builds are more balanced now, and if anything i am happy with that.

[Cisz]

My term just ended, and when i had some sleep and food, I'll prove they are totally unballanced.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

a-ha. but i said "more balanced", not "balanced".

[jolin012]

Although not much since beta 20 was changed about t3 dual (or the balance) and it was there proven to be too strong, It's for sure still imbalanced. (just like Cisz says early t3 duals too strong earl on). also with 15k worth of pure essences each, it'll probably be valid to do for example NWNWNWPPPxy too. We Need To Do Something. Unless someone comes up with an idea that they feel is better than t3 sup duals increase support over time, or agrees with that, the map will remain imbalanced I believe.

but a few replays tonight and no "replay or it didn't happen" should be possible Good to hear you'll test the balance too Cisz.

[Guest Sancdar]

I don't mind the overall difficulty ramping up at all. I feel that VE is still easy enough for casual players to win, and Normal might become the common difficulty on BNet (or it'll stay VE...)

As long as people label their games, there's no problem.

Also, remember that VE used to get like half the gold of VH, so in multiplayer it could actually turn into a harder game.