Dual Damage Type Swap

[Karawasa]

Per my conversation with holepercent, I would like to propose the following changes:

Ice >> Light

Hydro >> Water

Quark >> Earth

holepercent confirmed that these swaps actually improve the build balance as opposed to degrade it (like my previous proposal). In addition, variety is improved with light getting splash damage and earth getting single target damage. Finally, Hydro will do what it looks like .

Thoughts?

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

Per my conversation with holepercent, I would like to propose the following changes:

Ice >> Light

Hydro >> Water

Quark >> Earth

holepercent confirmed that these swaps actually improve the build balance as opposed to degrade it (like my previous proposal). In addition, variety is improved with light getting splash damage and earth getting single target damage. Finally, Hydro will do what it looks like .

Thoughts?

visually, ice as light damage is totally fine. quark is more of a stretch, but then again, so is hydro as earth.

tower/balance wise, i dont think i'd mind it at all.

[m0rph1ing]

Right now, there are three pairs of towers that aren't as balanced since they overlap damage types and the third dual in those elements is a support dual. These pairs are Ice/Poison, Flame/Kindle, and Quark/Electricity. Changing Ice to light, Electricity to Fire and Kindle to Water would fix all three pairs. This is not as appealing from a flavor standpoint though for electricity and hydro, but I think the balance works better. It also gives fire a single target dual.

[Kaini]

sounds ok

but the quark look should change if it will be earth.

[jolin012]

Per my conversation with holepercent, I would like to propose the following changes:

Ice >> Light

Hydro >> Water

Quark >> Earth

holepercent confirmed that these swaps actually improve the build balance as opposed to degrade it (like my previous proposal). In addition, variety is improved with light getting splash damage and earth getting single target damage. Finally, Hydro will do what it looks like .

Thoughts?

instead of poison/ice, quark/electricity, flame/kindle sharing dmg type and sup dual, which is half of the dmg duals that don't work in one combo, the ones that wouldnt't work would be:

flame/kindle and quark/gunpowder

but I like that light gets an AoE, earth gets an ST and hydro makes sense.

Right now, there are three pairs of towers that aren't as balanced since they overlap damage types and the third dual in those elements is a support dual. These pairs are Ice/Poison, Flame/Kindle, and Quark/Electricity. Changing Ice to light, Electricity to Fire and Kindle to Water would fix all three pairs

correct that is fixes ice/poison. but it doesn't fix flame kindle and it replaces quark/electricity with quark/gunpowder.

still there are 8 ways to fix all problems, if we consider them to be great problems.

[Twilice]

Nice change.

It will be strange to have quark as earth, but better then al those single lights we have.

I couldn't find any good ones, but we could use the Buff: spirit link as attack model.

[echinodermata]

Right now, there are three pairs of towers that aren't as balanced since they overlap damage types and the third dual in those elements is a support dual. These pairs are Ice/Poison, Flame/Kindle, and Quark/Electricity. Changing Ice to light, Electricity to Fire and Kindle to Water would fix all three pairs

correct that is fixes ice/poison. but it doesn't fix flame kindle and it replaces quark/electricity with quark/gunpowder.

I don't know what you're talking about. It does fix them all. In only 3 moves. I'm quite sure that's the minimal solution.

[Guest Timberwolf]

I'm trying to decide whether Kindle doing water damage would top Hydro doing earth damage on the "obviously inapropriate" scale or not.

[jolin012]

Right now, there are three pairs of towers that aren't as balanced since they overlap damage types and the third dual in those elements is a support dual. These pairs are Ice/Poison, Flame/Kindle, and Quark/Electricity. Changing Ice to light, Electricity to Fire and Kindle to Water would fix all three pairs

correct that is fixes ice/poison. but it doesn't fix flame kindle and it replaces quark/electricity with quark/gunpowder.

I don't know what you're talking about. It does fix them all. In only 3 moves. I'm quite sure that's the minimal solution.

Currently the Ice/Poison, Flame/Kindle, Quark/Electricity are bad because:

LWD contains a support dual(trickery) and 2 water type damage duals(ice poison)

FWN contains a support dual(well) and 2 fire type damage duals(flame kindle)

FLE contains a support dual(smith) and 2 light type damage duals(electricity quark)

if we would do the changes suggested by karawasa that woudl make:

FWN contains a support dual(well) and 2 fire type damage duals(flame kindle)

EDL contains a support dual(trickery) and 2 earth type damage duals(gun quark)

[Guest Sancdar]

Currently the Ice/Poison, Flame/Kindle, Quark/Electricity are bad because:

LWD contains a support dual(trickery) and 2 water type damage duals(ice poison)

FWN contains a support dual(well) and 2 fire type damage duals(flame kindle)

FLE contains a support dual(smith) and 2 light type damage duals(electricity quark)

if we would do the changes suggested by karawasa that woudl make:

FWN contains a support dual(well) and 2 fire type damage duals(flame kindle)

EDL contains a support dual(trickery) and 2 earth type damage duals(gun quark)

Right now, there are three pairs of towers that aren't as balanced since they overlap damage types and the third dual in those elements is a support dual. These pairs are Ice/Poison, Flame/Kindle, and Quark/Electricity. Changing Ice to light, Electricity to Fire and Kindle to Water would fix all three pairs

correct that is fixes ice/poison. but it doesn't fix flame kindle and it replaces quark/electricity with quark/gunpowder.

LWD - support (trickery/light), damage (ice/light), damage (poison/water)

fixed!

FWN - support (well/water), damage (flame/fire), damage (kindle/water)

fixed!

FLE - support (blacksmith/fire), damage (electricity/fire), damage (quark/light)

fixed!

I think you didn't read what m0rph1ing was suggesting properly, his changes do fix the damage type issues better than Karawasa's proposed changes do (unless I am missing something, I haven't double-checked the other three element builds affected). Unfortunately, they are pretty thematically weak. Even with renaming towers and switching letters around, I can't think of a good set of new names to go with the changes.

[jolin012]

oh sorry, I did read wrong. thought he said "karawasas supposed changes would work".but he suggested different changes - and yes those are great. one of the ways to get all working, and a nice finding cause it's so close to where we are now.

steam would make sense with water ofcourse, with boiling water instead of burning fire.

Ice makes enough sence with light.

Electricity to fire should work too, perhaps a bit of red to the chain lightning.

I'm for this idea. It makes all 3 ele combinations with a sup dual able to max. and more builds balanced is great.

[Guest Sancdar]

steam would make sense with water ofcourse, with boiling water instead of burning fire.

It's Kindle right now, not Steam...

[Karawasa]

As Sancdar said, these are thematically weak proposals. Where did this idea of "3 ele combinations with a sup dual able to max" come from? That was never the intention, and still isn't. The original problem was that Ice/Poison were too similar. Both proposals solve that, and right now I don't see a reason to go with the one that is thematically weaker.

Edit: That came across a tad blunt. I am of course open to reasons why I should go with m0rph1ing's proposal.

[echinodermata]

Weaker thematically, yes, but stronger mathematically (that is, balance-wise).

[m0rph1ing]

I think my proposal would help balance the 4 elemental builds in terms of damage types available. Since support duals aren't meant to be used as damage towers, having 2 of the same element damage dual with a support dual really limits damage type choices in any 4 element build using those 3 elements. A good example is any build with WEF. Water damage is really hard to add to those three elements. The tower damage types are EFF and EFFF if you include blacksmith.

It can be quite frustrating when you random an element and can't build duals/triples of that damage type. You end up limited to amplified towers and elemental arrows/cannons for that element.

[Guest Sancdar]

Since support duals aren't meant to be used as damage towers, having 2 of the same element damage dual with a support dual really limits damage type choices in any 4 element build using those 3 elements. A good example is any build with WEF. Water damage is really hard to add to those three elements. The tower damage types are EFF and EFFF if you include blacksmith.

This is actually a pretty terrible example, because it has a support dual with 2 different damage type damage duals. Also both Light and Darkness will give you a damage dual of Water type, and Nature gives you a Water support dual. I am not familiar enough with 4.0 towers to know what elements the 3 new triples are for each, though I believe DWEF has Muck(E), Flamethrower(F), Zealot(F), and Voodoo(D).

[m0rph1ing]

Ok, my bad, that example wasn't good, I guess DWEL is a better example. There is no darkness damage tower in that build. I guess something basically should be done to balance each 4 element build. Seems like each element should ideally have more than one option for damage.

[jolin012]

bad exaples imo. with 4.0 I'd be happy is 2 different elements for dmg duals are represented in each 3ele build with a dual boost. because else these type of builds won't work out.

FNW

FNW

FNWLD

FNW

FNWL

FNWL

with both kindle and flame being fire.

[Karawasa]

You guys bring up valid points about the merits of these changes. Ultimately I like to see unique damage situations (AoE Light, ST Earth etc.), strong thematic appeal (Hydro to Water), and of course balance. To this end I propose a hybrid of our ideas:

Ice >> Light

Hydro >> Water

Quark >> Earth

Electricity >> Fire

Kindle >> Water

I feel confident that these five changes address the first two goals (with a few cosmetic tweaks). What I'd like to know is the balance impact of the additional Hydro/Quark swap I added to m0rph1ing's proposal.

Thoughts?

[m0rph1ing]

These changes would leave Quark+Gunpowder and Hydro+Kindle as bad pairs. Jolin had posted 8 possible combinations of dual towers that would have no bad pairs. Hopefully one of those can be flavorful and not require too many changes.

[Karawasa]

These changes would leave Quark+Gunpowder and Hydro+Kindle as bad pairs. Jolin had posted 8 possible combinations of dual towers that would have no bad pairs. Hopefully one of those can be flavorful and not require too many changes.

Doh! That was quite an oversight on my part regarding Quark/Hydro...

In that case, I'm willing to go along with m0rph1ing's proposal. I could potentially do the following in addition (ideas I should be able to do, emphasis on should):

-Modify Erupt (Hydro) effect to be brownish instead of bluish

-Modify Conjure Lightning (Electricity) effect to be reddish instead of whitish

-Modify Roast (Kindle) effect to be bluish instead of yellowish

Together these changes should meet all goals.

Thoughts?

[jolin012]

To this end I propose a hybrid of our ideas:

Ice >> Light

Hydro >> Water

Quark >> Earth

Electricity >> Fire

Kindle >> Water

I guess you didn't think that through:P combining the idea of "a perfect set" with "a few additional changes" heh.

but your latest post sounds great!

please use the bubble instead of burn, and not only make it a blue fire. and would it be possible to call it something along the lines Steam? makes more sense with blue to have boiling. I know first lvl can't be named with an S. Perhaps "Boiling tower/Steam tower/something tower". Or soemthing like it. I've seen the bubble gfx at several places. same as in the drowning tower and for the dota turrent and some more places.

lightning reddish should work just good.

hydro more brownish... yess but not brown water please. perhaps mud/rocks instead of water. but you understand that too

[m0rph1ing]

I like Boiling/Steam/Vapor.

[holepercent]

DNEF

dark - magic/disease/voodoo

nature - mushroom/roots

earth - gunpowder/quaker

fire - flame/smith/flamethrower

DNEL

dark - disease/oblivion

nature - mushroom/life/roots/enchantment

earth - gunpowder

light - trickery/quantum/laser

DWEF

dark - magic

water - psn/kindle

earth - gunpowder/hydro/muck

fire - smith/corrosion/flamethrower/zealot

DWEL

dark -

water - psn

earth - gp/hydro/polar/muck

light - trickery/quark/hail/laser/ice

DNEW

dark - disease

nature - mushroom/roots/golem

earth - gp/hydro/muck

water - psn/well/drowning

LFNE

light - quark/nova

fire - flame/smith/electr

nature - life/mushroom/enchant

earth - gold/quaker

LFND

light - trickery/nova

fire - flame/electr

nature - life

dark - magic/disease/jinx/oblivion/voodoo

LWFE

light - ice/quark

water - kindle/windstorm

fire - electr/smith/zealot

earth - hydro/polar/gold

LWFD

light - trickery/hail/ice

water - psn/windstorm/kindle

fire - corrosion/electr

dark - magic/jinx

LFNW

light - nova/ice

fire - flame/electr

nature - life/impulse

water - well/windstorm/tidal/kindle

LDFE

light - trickery/quark/laser

dark - magic/jinx

earth - gp/gold

fire - smith/flamethrower/electr

LDWN

light - trickery/hail/ice

dark - disease/oblivion

water - psn/well/tidal/drowning

nature - life

LWNE

light - quark/ice

water - well/tidal

nature - life/mushroom/enchantment/golem

earth - hydro/polar

DWFN

dark - magic/disease/voodoo

water - psn/well/drowning/kindle

fire - flame/corrosion

nature - impulse

WFNE

water - well/kindle

fire - flame/smith/zealot

nature - mushroom/impulse/golem

earth - hydro/quaker

[holepercent]

Elemental damage list without support towers included

DNEF

dark - magic/disease

nature - mushroom

earth - gunpowder/quaker

fire - flame/flamethrower

DNEL

dark - disease/oblivion

nature - mushroom/life

earth - gunpowder

light - quantum/laser

DWEF

dark - magic

water - psn/kindle

earth - gunpowder/hydro

fire - flamethrower/zealot

DWEL

dark -

water - psn

earth - gp/hydro

light - quark/hail/laser/ice

DNEW

dark - disease

nature - mushroom/golem

earth - gp/hydro

water - psn/drowning

LFNE

light - quark

fire - flame/electr

nature - life/mushroom

earth - gold/quaker

LFND

light -

fire - electr/flame

nature - life

dark - magic/disease/jinx/oblivion

LWFE

light - quark/ice

water - kindle

fire - electr/zealot

earth - hydro/gold

LWFD

light - hail/ice

water - kindle/psn

fire - electr

dark - magic/jinx

LFNW

light - ice

fire - flame/electr

nature - life/impulse

water - kindle/tidal

LDFE

light - quark/laser

dark - magic/jinx

earth - gp/gold

fire - flamethrower/electr

LDWN

light - hail/ice

dark - disease/oblivion

water - psn/tidal/drowning

nature - life

LWNE

light - quark/ice

water - tidal

nature - life/mushroom/golem

earth - hydro

DWFN

dark - magic/disease

water - psn/drowning/kindle

fire - flame

nature - impulse

WFNE

water - kindle

fire - flame/zealot

nature - mushroom/impulse/golem

earth - hydro/quaker