Macro Balance: Pures

[jolin012]

Macro balance

2ele builds. (pure+dualboost)

Pures seem to have an overpowered effect if soloing with them. the fact that by buying pure essences you can get pures, the strongest towers, along with a 200% boos ttower.

for example: LDLDLDPPP gives 3 pures and 6 pure clones.

oh, and btw, trickery is still broken ratio system. I get 2 pures-> 3 clones and 3 pures->4 clones. instead of 2->4 and 3->6.

in the replay i play lazy and leak some, but you get the point. the only way I can think of solving this would be that either pure essences can not be bought at all, or, they can only be bought after level 50, instead of after ye have a lvl 3 elemental. would also make 6ele build+pures an option, but it has so much support to go for that it wouldn't be worth it really.

beta 18 pures.w3g

[Twilice]

Maybe another table?

* 10 in damage is alot now.

[jolin012]

What i mean is, by changing pure strength it might not be valid to even use the pures. to make duals and perhaps triples stronger is a bad move. Pures Should be limited to lategame Is the best way I think, by making pure essences either not possible to buy, or, buy only after wave 50.

Agreed or anyone having a better idea?

or is the case that pures are not too strong, and this replay is only possible becuase overall teh game is too easy? that'd be proven by providing an even easier victory with another build.

[Cisz]

Have you tried that multiplayer? I doubt you would live long enough for this if you don't xsm. You did xsm, right? (Been a while since I watched it.)

[jolin012]

yap, I did xsm. if ye have a 4 5 or 6ele build ready, I'm ready to try a challenge(to compare the builds). It's an important question wether one build or many build type or several or the entire game, is too easy.

[holepercent]

One thing about xsm is whether is it possible to survive to your opening build if you have to play from wave 1.

that replay is faster than my average build project replay. play against lesher's hydro replay?

Or maybe pures are too cheap gold-wise rather than being overpowered, thus players having the gold to rush and build pures before wave 40-50?

in build project i had gold for 3 pures in the endgame.. how does the dps/g for pures compare to the strong duals and triples?

[jolin012]

hydro itself is claimed to be overpowered. to see if the pure builds are overpowered it would be better to compare to a specific build that we think is not in the need of a buff/nerf.

[Karawasa]

holepercent and I agree that they are too cheap, and that this is probably the main culprit of imbalance.

I propose we significantly increase the cost while maintaining dpsg. Here are two possibilities:

Currently: 7503 and 10x jump from refined

Option 1: 11250 and 15x jump from refined

Option 2: 15006 and 20x jump from refined

Thoughts?

[m0rph1ing]

I would like to see the 11k option in action. In 4.0pb, 15k pures took up a large % of your networth. Hopefully 11k can be something in between the current beta and the 4.0pb that works.

[Twilice]

Does anyone here use focused towers here?

In NON-random games?

That was just a quick question.

Is it a strange idea to change the multiplier to 6? or a remake of that.

Since I rarely se any refined in use because you would rather use duals.

(exept if you go for example 3N+3W)

[jolin012]

as morphthing sais, the only thing that changes isn't that they can not be built early. it also makes them more powerful as soon as you have them, to let them take up more of your net worth. and 11k from 8k wouldn't help at all vs the pure problem. and if we would simply nerf them in damage without touching the cost, they would not be cool towers anymore, they would be the ultimate towers not very ultimate.

I think the only way would be making pure essences no earlier than 50, perhaps touch the damage or cost if you want, btu that alone will not prevent anything. it will only be easie to abuse them with a cost of 10-15k.

[m0rph1ing]

This shows the water+nature combo instead of light+dark.

Beta18b_WN_Pures_176ronalds.w3g

[Guest Sancdar]

I couldn't do pure FE. There isn't a great way to deal with the Level 3 elementals, since both your elements do splash damage. Lots of Forges eventually killed it, but I had lost too much time and money by then.

[jolin012]

heh, ofcourse, the advantage of st appears

[Karawasa]

Good design demands good compromise. I believe 15k and 20x damage multiplier (double damage and price from current values) is the best solution.

[dvdlesher]

Let's use "x" as an constant of that tower damage, then see the multipication factor increase per tier

From Karawasa POV (Point of view):

Tier 1 = x

Tier 2 = 5x

Tier 3 = 25x

Pure = 250x (currently), 375x (option 1), 500x (option 2)

From 13est POV:

Tier 1 = x

Tier 2 = 6x

Tier 3 = 36x

Pure = 360x

Basically, 13est POV is just like 'more earlier damage' version of Karawasa "option 1"

In this case, I'll vote for the 6 multiplication factor

The problem is, how to adjust the tower cost?

[jolin012]

if the problem is that pure earluy builds such as WNWNWNPPP are too strong, then increasing the cost and damage will not help. The "support dual+ pure"-builds will only get stronger. ontop of that, builds that have pures in lategame will spend a larger part of their cash on pures, so builds with dmg duals lvl 3 won't have any use of them. increasing the cost but not the dmg of pures, would make pures less effective than dmg duals and I guess we do not want that. would be possible to change by removing one of the free essences. would also make buy essence a valid option at lvl 45-55. and earlier on too ofc, which is the part we do not like.

SO - I suggest that if we, when we make the map harder, notice that the pure+dual boost builds are still too strong, then we might have to set a required wave for buying pure essences, like after lvl 50 or so. we might also have to consider wether 2 free essences is a good idea or not.