[Beta 13] Again: Make randoom a bit nicer

[Kaini]

Now the game has got very difficult. If you get in random $$ it is impossible to beat the game and it is hardly possible to beat it with $.

Maybe random should follow some rules to make it a bit easier.

[*]Maximal 2 $ maybe reduce to one $[/*:m:1oe3pfkj]

[*]Maximal 1 pure (AFAIK there are no p in random atm... would be cool if they were there)[/*:m:1oe3pfkj]

[*]No T2 element before 20 (including 20) ($$11 $111 1111) ($111 1111)[/*:m:1oe3pfkj]

[*]No T3 element before 35 (including 35) ($$11111 $$2111 $$221 $111111 $21111 $2211 $222 211111 22111 2221) ($111111 $21111 211111 (looks strange, maybe I made a mistake :S))[/*:m:1oe3pfkj]

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

imho it SHOULD be possible to beat the game with 2 $$, definitely 1 $. Maybe make interest a tiny bit stronger? =XX

from my experience it has been hard to beat the game at all

[holepercent]

first tier2 elemental at 25 makes more sense.. we've spent so much time balancing 4-5-6 element builds. Key balance aim was to ensure all 4-5-6 builds are playable. 3-element builds aren't exactly playable all the time. try playing L$D$LED or any permutation of that.. although in (semi-)competitive, -vhsr games, the aim is more to outlast opponents than complete the game, about making the best use of the set..

$ or $$ should be playable. it's more of the timing.. when you're struggling, with say bad opening elements, and expect a element to boost the build you get interest instead. 2 $$ can be pushing it at times..

It seems that the game likes to randOOm me (kaini, jolin012) LD$$(E) builds...

and yes... it's so difficult to play to wave 50 now.. post 4.0pb is like a different game again..

[Karawasa]

Interest should be an equal thing to get, and I am getting a negative feeling towards it. Back in the 3.0 development days, I increased interest from 0.5% to 0.75%. Perhaps it is now time to increase interest yet again to 1%? Obviously when you get interest you are not getting an element, so it should be beneficial enough to outweigh this loss.

Now we don't want interest to be too strong such that you can just max them out on pick and auto-win. If we increase it to 1% we may be in danger of this. I was thinking that it should be capped at 3 in pick, just like elements are.

As for the random topic on hand...

I would first like to note that essences are possible to get but have no hard cap. What it requires is having tier 3 of the element(level 40 at the earliest), then the next time you would random that element you get an essence instead. We certainly could put a cap of 1, but you have about a 6% chance to random two essences in a game, and <1% to get 3. I think it is probably fine as is.

Interest is already capped at 2, and I also think this is fine(what interest gives is another issue).

First tier 3 elemental is already at level 40, so this is a moot point.

Now the topic of first tier 2 elemental has been going on for quite awhile now. I believe it was originally argued to be changed to 25 because of difficulty in killing the boss. My counter has been to play with the hp growth rate of bosses instead, and avoid changing it to level 25 because of element distributions.

I was afraid of having the 6 element build become too frequent in random. If the tier 2 introduction is raised to 25, that is 4 chances to get 4 different elements. Experience and reports have shown though that the flipside to preventing this is having more randOOmed builds. With interest and a level 20 introduction, it is very possible to be stuck with only 2-3 elements until you die.

Also the bosses have had to be nerfed in order to make level 20 tier 2 somewhat manageable. This has disappointed me because later on the bosses become a joke to kill.

After considering all of the above, I am actually leaning towards making tier 2 start at level 25 instead of 20. I'd like to gather some more opinions on this though.

[electronX]

In my opinion, interest is...

... terrible for new players, as they build their whole money.

... excellent for medium players when playing offline - position 3-6-9 long pass allows lots of money grinding on early levels with a playable amount of selling (i consider interest-selling playable at P3 till level 15-25, depending on the elementals, thereafter I start to be too late with rebuilds).

... terrible for medium players when playing online - as most players can simply spam us (they play P45) either by playing normal level or simply being a pro, we cannot afford unspent gold and so most our interest goes wasted.

... excellent for pros, as they have the skills and practice to sell even mid-level well, so they perform well even while spammed.

Expect a player menu, where each player can choose, which way he wants:

a) boosting interest: each treasure grants the current +0.75%

money man: each treasure grants some gold each 15 seconds, where the amount of gold granted might increase with each level

c) treasure found: each treasure grants an instant money amount, depending on level again, and then it can either be used to build more towers or to be stacked for the current 2%.

The only hard thing is finding the way and amounts where Cisz won't have 1M gold always but it still balances those who chose it

Just an idea, feel free to drop it or use it.

[electronX]

Also the bosses have had to be nerfed in order to make level 20 tier 2 somewhat manageable. This has disappointed me because later on the bosses become a joke to kill.

I don't really understand, why higher Tier bosses have to be that strong.

We work hard to get a tier 2, than we pay the price to build the stronger tower. It can be a bonus, if upgrading to the newly achieved towers would be cheaper. (Which, in fact is: elementals had a 4.5x price ratio, while duals & such had a 4x ratio in 3.0, or around that, so you pay with your effort.)

I would even try tier 2 bosses have the same health as tier 1 bosses, but of course with the - now nerfed - growth restored.

It is also important that dps grows exponentially so the boss health should too. As for the first couple of levels once it was 4500, 6000, 7500, 9000, so it was linear. The increased health of tier 2 makes it harder, as it gets closer to the exponential growth, that was the choice.

So, if my choice is EEE, then what?

Of course, capping in random is very welcome as EEE is useless till I have at least 5000 gold (level 30 or so?).

[Cisz]

If the only problem is randoming a lv.2 elemental at 20, then there is an easy sollution: Nerf only lv.2 elementals after 20 on random.

I can take or delay a level 2 elemental on pick, and everything else seems to work just fine too. So make wave lv.2 ele at 20 on rnd a special case with nerfed hp. Still high enough to make the players go "oh noes" ofc.

[Twilice]

I would actaully say, now since the new remade of build power, that decrease the level 2 tier needed for random...

And speciall for tier 3. You often only get 1 tier 3 so you can't get any supertowers.

I don't know if interest should get a buff

WN-d.w3g

[Guest Timberwolf]

I would first like to note that essences are possible to get but have no hard cap. What it requires is having tier 3 of the element(level 40 at the earliest), then the next time you would random that element you get an essence instead. We certainly could put a cap of 1, but you have about a 6% chance to random two essences in a game, and <1% to get 3. I think it is probably fine as is.

I don't think essences need a cap from the games I've played. With the redesign where elemental towers cost less but also do less damage at high levels, I don't think hitting multiple essences is that overwhelming a bonus anymore. If offered a choice between hitting a 4th level 2 element or 1 level 3 and an essence, I would choose option 1 under the current builds.