[Beta 13c]Mushroom and Quark

[Cisz]

Both are to weak. I can't solo a wave with 6 of them (all gold spent) if it's not their strong wave. If it doesn't work with 10, I won't complain, but 6 are far to soon to fail for a damage dual.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

was the dps of quark changed due to the slower firing rate or does it (theoretically) work out to be the same?

[Twilice]

In the teory, yes. But it just charges to slow. Specially quark.

(Cisz did you save the replay, I forgot)

Oh, I just remembered I get the feeling that quakers are a bit to weak now.

I cant remember wich level, but amplified natures are much stronger..... Or atleast that is the feeling I got.

[Cisz]

I have that replay, but I just conducted a little demonstration.

4 Mushroom = 4 Magic = 4 Quark = 3 Ice = 3 Electricity < 3 Poison

Electricity is even stronger, as it is 1100 range now and can be played semi-longrange.

1553 Etd(4b13c vh) testing duals.w3g

[jolin012]

ya, and kindle is in between i think. but where is gunpowder and flame? flame is rather high top strength although requires alot of skill to use correctly. Death is far too hard to play and weak in all situations except a few it feels unplayable. and noobs get their feelings hurt. Hydro has a rather low top strength I feel. we should form a top strength dual tower rank and a top skill req rank (including how many/big weaknesses it has, such as gunpowder has long range so might not have time to put out it's entire top dmg in an MP game) which counters it.

Top Strength Ranks:

Poison

Ice

Electricity

Flame

Gunpowder

Kindle

Hydro

Mush

Magic

Quark

Death

Life

And here are my ranks for how hard the towers are to master and how great weaknesses they have, which means the one who's highest on the "hard to master" list, deserves to have highest top damage aswell. lowest towers should be recommended for beginners, but should not be too weak, but perhaps hard to play VH with.

Death

Flame

Ice

Poison

Quark

Kindle

Gunpowder

Electricity

Life

Magic

Mushroom

Hydro

The mastering ranks were hard to decide on, so i can tell the differances between some are very small, but in the same way should the dmg differance be rather small. and I most likely have a few of those messed up comparing to others' opinions.

These ranks do Not include the strength of aoe towers that allow them to play better with slowing towers in play. neither that ST towers own bosses better than other. Note that electricity is not good for either of those scenarios, so if keeping that in mind the ranks would imo look abit different.

[Twilice]

wy is magic ontop of mushroom?

Mushroom fires slower and several towers tend to shoot at same targets making several shoots 0 damage.

[Kaini]

I can't stand the new Magic/Mushroom...

But Quaker is underpowerd. Now it is nearly useless, if the wave isn't Light...

Poison agree

Ice agree but has got weaker in b13

Electricity agree

Flame i didn't test it, i guess i used it once

Gunpowder i don't think it is very strong, it is too random

Kindle agree

Hydro agree but a bit weak

Mush no i don't like it

Magic i don't like that too

Quark needs a power-up but looks nice

Death yep but very weak against Darkness

Life i didn't use it yet

Death please explain

Flame agree

Ice not hard to master

Poison disagree... poison is easy to master

Quark agree

Kindle disagree - works perfect at 5

Gunpowder please explain

Electricity disagree - easy to master at 5

Life disagree - see Electricity

Magic maybe - i can't use it

Mushroom maybe - i can't use it

Hydro disagree, looks like a normal two-pass tower

But that is a very nice list.

[jolin012]

wy is magic ontop of mushroom?

They are more or less exactly the same, but i didn't place them on the same line cause i was lining them one on each line:P but the differance between those t2 is equal to 0%. (first i was thinking magic would be worse but then when it reavealed the attackspeed no more worries. Magic doesn't do more overkills with high damage because it has a high attackspeed, meaning it can solo aswell.)

Poison agree

Ice agree but has got weaker in b13

Electricity agree

Flame i didn't test it, i guess i used it once

Gunpowder i don't think it is very strong, it is too random

Kindle agree

Hydro agree but a bit weak

Mush no i don't like it

Magic i don't like that too

Quark needs a power-up but looks nice

Death yep but very weak against Darkness

Life i didn't use it yet

I ranked them in max power, that's why the lower ones are weak, so i guess you didn't mean much by "needs a power up" and such on the lower lines:p. Life tower however should be low in damage, it's rather special..

Death please explain - this one doesn't work out, so it's hard to master x)

Flame agree

Ice not hard to master - it is not very easy to master it's placement is it? the one who masters this tower should know he has to combine with an ST tower, preferably longrange, to catch elementals. and, manuall attacking can be used to make the tower attack an entire lane, as if placed at 4 and want it to attack upwards on 1st pass.

Poison disagree... poison is easy to master - by master i do not only mean micro, it means placement and micro skill required and how many weaknesses, for example, try to get some bosses killed with this tower

Quark agree

Kindle disagree - works perfect at 5 - exactly, and this one got lower cause it doesn't require an micro, only requires placement skill and something wise to hunt eles.

Gunpowder please explain this one works at least rather good more or less anywhere you place it but has, as for a differance from life and those, very hard with those eles.

Electricity disagree - easy to master at 5 - easy to master? tell me all good spots at 5 that this works well on. and then bring me a noob to do the same range 1100 isn't very easy to master. and why disagree by saying this is easy to use? it allready is very low on rank, meaning easy to use.

Life disagree - see Electricity this one's a bit easier, cause it catches eles with rather long range and full power.

Magic maybe - i can't use it - easy tower, just place it on a 2 pass and it has more or less full power. Most beginners should try towers that are easy to master, and magic is close to as easy to master as an arrow tower. no boss weakness. to get max power a bit slower 2pass prefered.

Mushroom maybe - i can't use it - same as magic.

Hydro disagree, looks like a normal two-pass tower - yap and that's why it's one of the easiest to use. only harder thing is perhaps a minor boss weakness and that you need more than one to be safe.

didn't mean no harm but i still feel rather correct about my rankings, but please, do keep adding your oppinions both on my rank lists and your new lists, this is an important question atm. and, duals is just the warm up

And for those who read all but don't understand why I am doing this I can tell, we (or at least i do and felt ppl are agreeing) to have the harder towers to master (in terms of how hard to place, micro, avoid it's weaknesses etc), to have those harder towers have a higher top damage. that is why the rank of "how hard to master" is important. the "how much top dmg currently"-rank is not that important for the future, but it is for comparing "where we are" to "where we're going" in other words, I am sugguesting which towers to get the buff and which to get the nerf, but not yet telling it in a very exact/precise way.

[Kaini]

I thuoght you mean micro. I guess positions are not that difficult - you read them once and know them always. (Thats the "learn by rote" part)

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but i think Magic/Mush sucks.

In the light of Kaini's post, jolin wrote:

[jolin012]

they do and that's why they're really low:P . they have about 1666 max damage. that's a bit above 3dpspg. a nature arrow tower has the same damage^^. even though this one isn't much to master, it definitly shouldn't be this weak. Although the most easy towers to play are meant for lower difficulties than VH the % power differance ain't meant to be this great imo. perhaps buff it from 1666 tp.. 1850?( an 11% buff to the dmg) just for a temporary value until we fix em all for real^^

[Twilice]

Yes at first I also thought it was about micro, but I just realesid my misstake right before I posted (I made a quote like kaini and edit the messages. But they were messed upp since it was about micro)

[jolin012]

I didn't really explain it well before i guess, but when i mean mastering the tower it could in other words be, the many weaknesses of the tower. one weakness would be "you have to micro to get full use of this tower". another could be "you need to think to figure the location of this tower" or perhaps "this tower will we weaker if there's a fast player in the game" or "you need to combine this tower with something else to catch bosses" or "this tower has very limited amount of slots for placements, aka can't build too many of it for full power" anything else that you need to know about the tower before using it. just like gold tower in 3.0 was not just overpowered, it was also very easy to play, since it had no weakness. ya just massed them. They didn't really desrve to be able to solo vh.

anyway, the point is, "how hard is it to play this tower to full power" should bring a higher "full power". and that's what I'm trying to express in the rankings aswell.

[Karawasa]

I'm glad to see you guys are doing some sort of tower ranking. Perhaps start a new thread for doing the duals and then the triples. These kind of player feedback power rankings are great for adjusting balance based on feel. We have supposedly gotten the mathcraft finished, so now it is time to tweak.

[holepercent]

nice list.. i have some doubts of which some are already mentioned... but most of it is 'correct'.. should be able to get my personal list out this weekend..

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

magic and mushroom are definitely underperforming (in terms of my expectations at least). Don't know about the higher tiers, but i can't even do water waves with magic that I think I should be able to.

the only other sources of darkness damage we have (unless i'm forgetting something) are disease (still not really working well in my experience), jinx (tricky to use), and oblivion (micro intensive, can't rebuild). Muck used to be my "go-to" source of darkness damage but since that's earth now, I feel like darkness damage is lacking. The new jinx is somewhat good though, even only using it a little I can tell it's useful.

[jolin012]

Magic is getting a buff, at least imo and most others agree. none got death to work really, some claim it to only be a bit too weak, but i guess teh concept will never really work. oblivion can be considered a longrange tower and jinx could be considered to be an AoE-DoT (like kindle). They both work, although maybe a buff needed for jinx. not sure yet if the range increase made buff enough though.

[Guest Timberwolf]

magic and mushroom are definitely underperforming (in terms of my expectations at least). Don't know about the higher tiers, but i can't even do water waves with magic that I think I should be able to.

the only other sources of darkness damage we have (unless i'm forgetting something) are disease (still not really working well in my experience), jinx (tricky to use), and oblivion (micro intensive, can't rebuild). Muck used to be my "go-to" source of darkness damage but since that's earth now, I feel like darkness damage is lacking. The new jinx is somewhat good though, even only using it a little I can tell it's useful.

Poison should be changed back to dark damage, IMO.

[holepercent]

for elemental damage types:

http://www.eletd.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=971

it appears that most of the elemental damage types overall and for 4-element builds is almost balanced.. any changes will probably affect the balance..

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

iono...i guess it is kind of nice to have an AoE damage for darkness, but I don't really mind poison being water. in 4.0 PB water really had no "easy" towers--tidal required micro and thinking, drowning i felt like shouldn't really be relied on as a main tower except for early-mid game and perhaps against mech, and ice wasn't a damage tower.

hm actually that is a good point. Ice is a pseudo-AoE damage tower now, and poison does the same thing, kind of. forgetting any issues with both of them being overpowered, is it alright for them to be so alike (i feel as if this may have been brought up before)?

[holepercent]

not really that similar.. ice hits creeps unevenly while poison deals its damage evenly to all creeps in range..

but dark appears to lack a decent damage dealer that requires (little) micro to use. considering magic is underpowered at the moment.. i'll see the balance changes if i shift poison to dark..

[jolin012]

perhaps because 75% of darknesses towers are broken or underpowered?=) and as a random sidenote, darkness is the only element that does not have 2 supporttowers using that dmgtype (simply because there are 11 support towers) but that ofcourse doesn't matter alot.