Elemental damage types

[holepercent]

Currently:

(elemental damage type)

light (trickery/electricity/quantum/hail/laser/nova)

dark (poison/magic/disease/oblivion/jinx/muck)

water (well/Ice/tidal/drowning/windstorm)

fire (blacksmith/flame/flamethrower/zealot/voodoo/corrosion)

nature (life/mushroom/impulse/golem/enchantment/roots)

earth (gunpowder/hydro/gold/quaker/polar)

non-elemental - 100% to all

(kindle)

to balance things out:

light (trickery/electricity/quantum/hail/laser/nova)

dark (magic/disease/oblivion/jinx/voodoo)

water (poison/well/Ice/tidal/drowning/windstorm)

fire (kindle/blacksmith/flame/flamethrower/zealot/corrosion)

nature (life/mushroom/impulse/golem/enchantment/roots)

earth (gunpowder/hydro/gold/quaker/polar/muck)

ie: voodoo to dark, muck to earth, kindle to fire, and poison to water

this ensures a balance in the elemental damage types and leaves no element too far behind. Earth has no support towers that deal ability damage (polar's damage is it's normal attack, the ability does no direct damage) while fire has 2 in corrosion and voodoo (both the tower's normal attack and ability deals damage)

although it remains to be seen in the 4-element builds are the damage types balanced or some builds are unable to cover their weaknesses.

(discussed with karawasa in irc)

[Cisz]

Have you done the test for all 15 builds? Is there a good dmg tower and a cover for the weak element everywhere? Maybe we should wait with this for a while, because I forsee the possibility for towers swapping places.

[holepercent]

currently (before proposed changes)

DNEF

dark - magic/disease

nature - mushroom/roots

earth - gunpowder/quaker

fire - flame/smith/voodoo/flamethrower

DNEL

dark - disease/oblivion

nature - mushroom/life/roots/enchantment

earth - gunpowder

light - trickery/quantum/laser

DWEF

dark - poison/magic/muck

water -

earth - gunpowder/hydro

fire - smith/corrosion/flamethrower/zealot

composite - kindle

DWEL

dark - poison/muck

water - ice

earth - gp/hydro/polar

light - trickery/quark/hail/laser

DNEW

dark - disease/psn/muck

nature - mushroom/roots/golem

earth - gp/hydro

water - well/drowning

LFNE

light - electr/quark/nova

fire - flame/smith

nature - life/mushroom/enchant

earth - gold/quaker

LFND

light - electr/trickery/nova

fire - flame/voodoo

nature - life

dark - magic/disease/jinx/oblivion

LWFE

light - electr/quark

water - ice/windstorm

fire - smith/zealot

earth - hydro/polar/gold

non - kindle

LWFD

light - electr/trickery/hail

water - ice/windstorm

fire - corrosion

dark - poison/magic/jinx

non - kindle

LFNW

light - elecr/nova

fire - flame

nature - life/impulse

water - ice/well/windstorm/tidal

non - kindle

LDFE

light - trickery/electr/quark/laser

dark - magic/jinx

earth - gp/gold

fire - smith/flamethrower

LDWN

light - trickery/hail

dark - poison/disease/oblivion

water - ice/well/tidal/drowning

nature - life

LWNE

light - quark

water - ice/well/tidal

nature - life/mushroom/enchantment/golem

earth - hydro/polar

DWFN

dark - psn/magic/disease

water - well/drowning

fire - flame/corrosion/voodoo

nature - impulse

non - kindle

WFNE

water - well

fire - flame/smith/zealot

nature - mushroom/impulse/golem

earth - hydro/quaker

non - kindle

Summary

current setup

DNEF has 4 fire towers

DWEF has 4 fire towers

DNEL has 4 nature towers

LWNE has 4 nature towers

DWEL has 4 light towers

LDFE has 4 light towers

LFND has 4 dark towers

LFNW has 4 water towers

LDWN has 4 water towers

DNEL has 1 earth tower

DWEF has no water towers

WFNE has 1 water tower

DWEL has 1 water tower

LWNE has 1 light tower

LFND has 1 nature tower

LDWN has 1 nature tower

DWFN has 1 nature tower

LWFD has 1 fire tower

LFNW has 1 fire tower

[Karawasa]

Have you done the test for all 15 builds? Is there a good dmg tower and a cover for the weak element everywhere? Maybe we should wait with this for a while, because I forsee the possibility for towers swapping places.

That is definitely something that needs to be looked at. However, even if we end up swapping some places we are still going to need to equate the number of towers each element type has.

[Twilice]

Also it much match the tower.

(I don't think hydro match as earth)

[dvdlesher]

Also it much match the tower.

(I don't think hydro match as earth)

Yeah, word "hydro" usually tags with something watery... I guess it should be "water" elemental?

[holepercent]

That is definitely something that needs to be looked at. However, even if we end up swapping some places we are still going to need to equate the number of towers each element type has.

i've already posted the pre-change list.. in the post just above yours.. it lists the damage types and what towers have that damage type.. just the list with a small bit of analysis at the bottom of the post...

.. need to analyse the list in greater detail...

[Karawasa]

That is definitely something that needs to be looked at. However, even if we end up swapping some places we are still going to need to equate the number of towers each element type has.

.. need to analyse the list in greater detail...

That's is what I meant .

[holepercent]

it'll be best to delay this until after the new towers are out at least.. like in a build with strong fire damage, is a poison tower a cover against water waves?

towers switching will also invalidate some of the analysis.. with strong towers/damage towers switching elementals/positions...

i'll still go ahead with a preliminary analysis.. granted that i can't complete all 15 builds myself, but anyway.. the analysis still can be done (more so in theory).. most likely complete over the weekend..

[holepercent]

b12 updated

Currently:

(elemental damage type)

light (trickery/electricity/quantum/hail/laser/nova)

dark (magic/disease/oblivion/jinx/voodoo)

water (poison/well/Ice/tidal/drowning/windstorm)

fire (kindle/blacksmith/flame/flamethrower/zealot/corrosion)

nature (life/mushroom/impulse/golem/enchantment/roots)

earth (gunpowder/hydro/gold/quaker/polar/muck)

DNEF

dark - magic/disease/voodoo

nature - mushroom/roots

earth - gunpowder/quaker

fire - flame/smith/flamethrower

DNEL

dark - disease/oblivion

nature - mushroom/life/roots/enchantment

earth - gunpowder

light - trickery/quantum/laser

DWEF

dark - magic

water - psn

earth - gunpowder/hydro/muck

fire - kindle/smith/corrosion/flamethrower/zealot

DWEL

dark -

water - psn/ice

earth - gp/hydro/polar/muck

light - trickery/quark/hail/laser

DNEW

dark - disease

nature - mushroom/roots/golem

earth - gp/hydro/muck

water - psn/well/drowning

LFNE

light - electr/quark/nova

fire - flame/smith

nature - life/mushroom/enchant

earth - gold/quaker

LFND

light - electr/trickery/nova

fire - flame

nature - life

dark - magic/disease/jinx/oblivion/voodoo

LWFE

light - electr/quark

water - ice/windstorm

fire - kindle/smith/zealot

earth - hydro/polar/gold

LWFD

light - electr/trickery/hail

water - psn/ice/windstorm

fire - kindle/corrosion

dark - magic/jinx

LFNW

light - electr/nova

fire - kindle/flame

nature - life/impulse

water - ice/well/windstorm/tidal

LDFE

light - trickery/electr/quark/laser

dark - magic/jinx

earth - gp/gold

fire - smith/flamethrower

LDWN

light - trickery/hail

dark - disease/oblivion

water - psn/ice/well/tidal/drowning

nature - life

LWNE

light - quark

water - ice/well/tidal

nature - life/mushroom/enchantment/golem

earth - hydro/polar

DWFN

dark - magic/disease/voodoo

water - psn/well/drowning

fire - kindle/flame/corrosion

nature - impulse

WFNE

water - well

fire - kindle/flame/smith/zealot

nature - mushroom/impulse/golem

earth - hydro/quaker

[holepercent]

Elemental damage list without support towers included

DNEF

dark - magic/disease

nature - mushroom

earth - gunpowder/quaker

fire - flame/flamethrower

DNEL

dark - disease/oblivion

nature - mushroom/life

earth - gunpowder

light - quantum/laser

DWEF

dark - magic

water - psn

earth - gunpowder/hydro

fire - kindle/flamethrower/zealot

DWEL

dark -

water - psn/ice

earth - gp/hydro

light - quark/hail/laser

DNEW

dark - disease

nature - mushroom/golem

earth - gp/hydro

water - psn/drowning

LFNE

light - electr/quark

fire - flame

nature - life/mushroom

earth - gold/quaker

LFND

light - electr

fire - flame

nature - life

dark - magic/disease/jinx/oblivion

LWFE

light - electr/quark

water - ice

fire - kindle/zealot

earth - hydro/gold

LWFD

light - electr/hail

water - psn/ice

fire - kindle

dark - magic/jinx

LFNW

light - electr

fire - kindle/flame

nature - life/impulse

water - ice/tidal

LDFE

light - electr/quark/laser

dark - magic/jinx

earth - gp/gold

fire - flamethrower

LDWN

light - hail

dark - disease/oblivion

water - psn/ice/tidal/drowning

nature - life

LWNE

light - quark

water - ice/tidal

nature - life/mushroom/golem

earth - hydro

DWFN

dark - magic/disease

water - psn/drowning

fire - kindle/flame

nature - impulse

WFNE

water -

fire - kindle/flame/zealot

nature - mushroom/impulse/golem

earth - hydro/quaker

[Twilice]

This is just a little add on.

If you use only W-N-L you will end upp in 3 water towers out of 4. Is this supposed to be?

[jolin012]

FWN has 2 fire duals, LFE has 2 Light duals. ok, 3 element builds are not meant to be used, but 33311 and 3332 are both relying on the damage that those 2 duals do. Although it's ok with me that all 12 3-ele builds tha have a duals support do Not work that easy, it's more fun that way, while we could balance it to all 3ele build have 2 different attacktypes, perhaps we could even balance it to "all 3ele have a damage tower and a damagetower that covers that tower", and that'd be balanced but wouldn't be fun, it'd take us far too close to "any build i pick i will get the same towers with different names".

anyhow, what I found was that if:

LE - L(ight Dmg)

LN - L

DW - D

DF - D

WE - W

WL - W

FL - F

FW - F

ND - N

NF - N

ED - E

EN - E

All 3ele with a support duall would have 2 different damage types.

That'd be too much for 4.0, but it's balanced although boring, if that'd for some reason be wanted for 5.0

[jolin012]

anyhow, what I found was that if:

LE - L(ight Dmg)

LN - L

DW - D

DF - D

WE - W

WL - W

FL - F

FW - F

ND - N

NF - N

ED - E

EN - E

All 3ele with a support duall would have 2 different damage types.

Note that that's only an example. there are other ways around too, such as:

DF - D

DW - D

LN - L

LE -L

NF -N

ND - N

ED - E

EN - E

WL - W

WE - W

FL - F

FW - F

I'm still not sure how important i should consider it to be to not have 3ele builds inluding only one dmgdual attacktypes, like DWL (poison-water ice-water) and FWN (kindle, flame) LEF(quark electricity).

perhaps it is also possible to have every 3 elements that is not a support triple, to have 2 dmg duals of different aattacktype and the dmgtriple be the 3rd of the 3 elements. but that'd also mess up the current support triples' and duals' elements, so it is definitly not something for 4.0

[holepercent]

i'm pretty sure there are many possible permutations and combinations to having the damage towers equal in elemental damage.. but what about when combined with the support towers? have to consider the overall elemental damage scheme.. from what i see it's pretty balanced now and we wouldn't want to make major changes to the elemental damage types or even tower reshuffling for this upcoming 4.0 release.

3-element builds aren't really the focus.. i don't think all 3-element builds are playable.. well.. our aim in map balance is to balance 4-5-6 element builds. so i'm not really sure if that's the way to go.. although with that balance, 4 element builds should have some form of balance as well as adding one element will add to the 3-element build a mix of damage types (as it can be considered as overlapping 3-element builds with 2 common elements).

as you already mentioned, it may well end up that every build is identical just different tower names.. Not so likely as most duals are 'different' and 'unique' in some ways.. have you tried if it's possible to have the duals with different damage types and the resulting triple the 3rd (with towers switching elements if needed) ?

[jolin012]

Why 3ele dmg is a little bit of importance is because you max 3 eles in a 2ele build, and rather likly to do it in a 5ele build too. like F3 E3 L3 W1 N1 or F3 E3 L3 W2. in which both cases, it is pretty sad to have the 2 maxed triples use teh same damage type, like poison and ice in WLD or flame and kindle in FNW or LFE with Electricity and Quark.

Oh in the other hand, every 4 and 5ele build can avoid it by maxing other elements which makes up for a test of skill, which i like

[Karawasa]

Could someone create a tool (perhaps in excel) that maps this out the way holepercent has listed. I mean you input the elemental damage type for each tower, and it outputs the elemental damage types available for each build and from which towers.

I'd like to test making Poison > Darkness, Kindle > Water, and Magic > Fire.

[Twilice]

If so, could you try making kindle a bit more steam like? (also name can be called steam)

[Guest DevouringOne]

And why some elements have more tripples/duals from other? This makes the elements unbalanced...hmmm

[jolin012]

um, that is rather untrue. There are 12 damage duals and 12 damage triples. 2 of each of each element.

The damage type of the support triples can not be equally many of each types. *3 damage duals cant use 6 element types, neither can 8 support triples. instead there are 2 support towers of each element except darkness which has one, just for the sake that the number of towers not including composite towers is not dividable by 6)

And the support towers damage is not a big deal after all. and the dmg type of the boosters is not part of the balance, so it is not a problem.

[echinodermata]

Could someone create a tool (perhaps in excel) that maps this out the way holepercent has listed. I mean you input the elemental damage type for each tower, and it outputs the elemental damage types available for each build and from which towers.

I'd like to test making Poison > Darkness, Kindle > Water, and Magic > Fire.

Could you explain the rationale for possibly making {Poison > Darkness, Kindle > Water, and Magic > Fire}?

In the meantime, I have made two set of 5 nice diagrams which arrange the 6 elements into a hexagon and the duals/triples are represented by colored lines/triangles (dotted lines/dark boxed triangles are support towers).

I hope they help with visualization.

I can make more quite easily, too.

The first set is arranged with the elements in order around the circle (DWFNEL).

The second set is the same, but arranged for maximal symmetry (DFNLEW).

Also attached below are the same diagrams in PDF format.

Edit: Major errors for the symmetric diagrams have been corrected.

EleTD1.pdf

Ordered.png

Symmetric fixed.png

EleTD2.pdf

[Guest DevouringOne]

You can try to change the last figures from the two pictures they may cause some problems...

[holepercent]

b18b proposed

Currently:

(elemental damage type)

light (trickery/electricity/hail/laser/nova/ice)

dark (magic/disease/oblivion/jinx/voodoo)

water (poison/well/tidal/drowning/windstorm/hydro)

fire (kindle/blacksmith/flame/flamethrower/zealot/corrosion)

nature (life/mushroom/impulse/golem/enchantment/roots)

earth (gunpowder/gold/quaker/polar/muck/quark)

DNEF

dark - magic/disease/voodoo

nature - mushroom/roots

earth - gunpowder/quaker

fire - flame/smith/flamethrower

DNEL

dark - disease/oblivion

nature - mushroom/life/roots/enchantment

earth - gunpowder/quark

light - trickery/laser

DWEF

dark - magic

water - psn/hydro

earth - gunpowder/muck

fire - kindle/smith/corrosion/flamethrower/zealot

DWEL

dark -

water - psn/hydro

earth - gp/polar/muck/quark

light - trickery/hail/laser/ice

DNEW

dark - disease

nature - mushroom/roots/golem

earth - gp/muck

water - psn/well/drowning/hydro

LFNE

light - electr/quark/nova

fire - flame/smith

nature - life/mushroom/enchant

earth - gold/quaker

LFND

light - electr/trickery/nova

fire - flame

nature - life

dark - magic/disease/jinx/oblivion/voodoo

LWFE

light - electr/ice

water - windstorm

fire - kindle/smith/zealot

earth - hydro/polar/gold/quark

LWFD

light - electr/trickery/hail/ice

water - psn/windstorm

fire - kindle/corrosion

dark - magic/jinx

LFNW

light - electr/nova/ice

fire - kindle/flame

nature - life/impulse

water - well/windstorm/tidal

LDFE

light - trickery/electr/laser

dark - magic/jinx

earth - gp/gold/quark

fire - smith/flamethrower

LDWN

light - trickery/hail/ice

dark - disease/oblivion

water - psn/well/tidal/drowning

nature - life

LWNE

light - ice

water - well/tidal

nature - life/mushroom/enchantment/golem

earth - hydro/polar/quark

DWFN

dark - magic/disease/voodoo

water - psn/well/drowning

fire - kindle/flame/corrosion

nature - impulse

WFNE

water - well

fire - kindle/flame/smith/zealot

nature - mushroom/impulse/golem

earth - hydro/quaker

[holepercent]

Elemental damage list without support towers included

DNEF

dark - magic/disease

nature - mushroom

earth - gunpowder/quaker

fire - flame/flamethrower

DNEL

dark - disease/oblivion

nature - mushroom/life

earth - gunpowder/quark

light - laser

DWEF

dark - magic

water - psn/hydro

earth - gunpowder

fire - kindle/flamethrower/zealot

DWEL

dark -

water - psn/hydro

earth - gp/quark

light - hail/laser/ice

DNEW

dark - disease

nature - mushroom/golem

earth - gp

water - psn/drowning/hydro

LFNE

light - electr

fire - flame

nature - life/mushroom

earth - gold/quaker/quark

LFND

light - electr

fire - flame

nature - life

dark - magic/disease/jinx/oblivion

LWFE

light - electr/ice

water - hydro

fire - kindle/zealot

earth - gold/quark

LWFD

light - electr/hail/ice

water - psn

fire - kindle

dark - magic/jinx

LFNW

light - electr/ice

fire - kindle/flame

nature - life/impulse

water - tidal

LDFE

light - electr/laser

dark - magic/jinx

earth - gp/gold/quark

fire - flamethrower

LDWN

light - hail/ice

dark - disease/oblivion

water - psn/tidal/drowning

nature - life

LWNE

light - ice

water - tidal/hydro

nature - life/mushroom/golem

earth - quark

DWFN

dark - magic/disease

water - psn/drowning

fire - kindle/flame

nature - impulse

WFNE

water - hydro

fire - kindle/flame/zealot

nature - mushroom/impulse/golem

earth - quaker