Rebalance Composite 4.0

[dvdlesher]

Does anybody agree with me if I says that composite armor has too much armor reduction against elemental attack (75%)?

Everytime I fought at composite armor wave, I always fail to kill all of the creep except the beginning wave (around 1-20 wave), after that, It's all messed up. Is it so hard to kill composite creep in this 4.0 version?

The latest official version (3.0) got only 90% armor reduction against elemental attack right?

[Twilice]

Yes, I posted that before in the dev forums. I think 80-85% percent is better. They should be a little harder then the others.

[0rb3r]

The main purpose behind the composite armor reduction is to force the player to treat it like a special wave like undead or mechs are. It is no longer possible to ignore the components of upcoming waves.

This is imo a good thing because it makes the tendency to overbuild much stronger, you have to build extra on about half of the waves and have to keep your build weak on the other half to make enough interest.

Now you have to keep an eye on:

- If the next wave comes an elemental

- If the element of the next wave is strong against your main damagers

- If the next wave is composite

- If the next wave is undead or mechanical

-Or if many of the above stated things come together

Thus it requires much more skill then before to manage all and it requires more experience to know how much needs to be built extra on each situation. The actual values make the game much more active and make it nearly impossible to stay long with the same towers, all good things imo.

When I first started I thought as well they were too strong, but I got pretty much used to it after some time. I think that the formula should be that a composite unclassified wave should be about as hard as an element mechanical wave. So, something between 75 and 80% reduction, i really wouldnt mind if it stays the way it is, you have more money then before to compensate on all difficulties below VH.

[Twilice]

all normal waves over level 40 is really really though.

80% would be much better.

[Cisz]

I disagree.

How about this - I don't hear you complaining about healing or mech, maybe they should get harder?

Or this: Go practice.

[dvdlesher]

If that's the case, then there should be another special wave like "armor plus" or "damage reduction" wave rather than using composite element. Composite element shouldn't be this hard, right..?

Even if I mass the map with all slowing tower avaiable, they still can leak (especially composite mech). The composite creep makes the EleTD 4.0 to ve impossible to beat without leaking. And even more harder on random mode

[0rb3r]

We plenty discussed about adding more classifications like "tank", "resistent", "persistent" and such, the main problem is that we need creep models that fit these classifications and need to put them in without messing the game. We didn't found a way.

And I disagree, exactly after wave 40 you start having money excess, midgame is the hardest part. After wave 40 you just have to prepare earlier.

EleTD 4.0 PB can be beated no leak on vh, Cisz did it once, so it is possible with certain builds to beat it. I finished once normal with 49 lives, and the one I leaked was before wave 20. So i'm 100% certain it is possible to do it on normal dif. without being uber.

I wouldn't mind to have healing waves to be a bit harder, if you give me +0,5% starting interest rate

[Twilice]

Normal feels thougher then lets say healing nature.

[Guest ma23]

i thought elemental to composite was reduced since element to element was increased from 90 to 100.

it was 90 + 90 + 90 + 90 + 90 + 50 + 200 = 700 for 6 elements + comp

its now 75 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 50 + 200 = 725 for 6 elements + comp

assuming equal distribution of each element which i think it is (minus round 1-5)

[0rb3r]

I think to remember that element to element was always 100%.

element to neutral was 90% and is now 75%.

Previous element to element (ex. earth to light) was and is 200% while next element to element (ex. dark to light) remains on 50%.

So it is undoubtfully harder now on 4.0 then previously on 3.0. The only change is composite which has dropped from 90% to 75%.

An single element tower did in 3.0:

Single element: (4x(8x100%))+(1x(8x50%))+1x(8x200%))+1x(12x90%))=6280/60 waves= 104,6% average damage the whole game

A single element tower in 4.0 does:

Single element: (4x(8x100%))+(1x(8x50%))+1x(8x200%))+1x(12x75%))=6100/60 waves= 101,6% average damage the whole game

Both versions, 3.0 and 4.0, have 8 waves of each element and 12 waves of composite armor.

[dvdlesher]

Cisz did?! Man, he's a total pro..

Anyway, last thing I remember about the Element TD 3 elemental damage afinity is:

-Elemental to elemental damage is 100% (other than weakness or strong than type)

-Elemental to composite damage is 90%

So, the damage afinity (on version 3) is:

90+100+100+100+100+50+200=740, not 90+90+90+90+90+50+200=700

But now, on version 4, the damage afinity is:

75(element to composite)+100+100+100+100+50+200=725

[0rb3r]

Cisz did?! Man, he's a total pro..

Yeah, but I think it was on one of the internal betas before the damage reduction% was readjusted, dunno, it may be harder right now in the public beta.

Maybe he has already a vh noleak replay for the public beta being cooked in the oven . You should ask him directly.

[Twilice]

The most important, single player or multiplayer

[Cisz]

It was on one of the private betas, and I can assure you that the composite took only 75%.

[0rb3r]

It was on one of the private betas, and I can assure you that the composite took only 75%.

I don't mean the armor type reduction, I meant the armor strength reduction. I think it was on b7 the armor strength was changed so each point of armor means more damage reduction%. On VH (15 armor) it changed from 46% to 48% or so. Ok, nevermind, it really isn't much of a difference.

[dvdlesher]

You mean, the armor itself? (not considering waht element it is / composite)

If I'm correct:

Element TD Version 3 OV, VH Armor (15 armor) damage reduction is 43%

Element TD version 4 PB, VH Armor (15 armor) damage reduction is 47%

So, does that means the games get harder now?

[Karawasa]

Yes, that is exactly what it means. Combined with the fact that ALL spell damage was converted over to physical damage (affected by both armor amount and type), armor overall now has a more significant role in the game. In addition to that, creep maximum HP was increased as well. It went from a level factor of 1.166 (meaning that level 2 has 1.166x the HP of level 1 etc.) to a level factor of 1.17.

These changes make the game significantly harder, especially on H and VH. This is exactly what I was trying to achieve, because it adds a significant amount of replay value and competition to the game.

[0rb3r]

Yeah but don't forget that we have now much better damagers, a general damage amount buff and less weak towers/builds. Its a pretty good deal imo.

[dvdlesher]

I see.. But I still personally think that the game was extreme enough to win it. Has the no leak replay posted?

[jolin012]

Still the drowning tower is >50% armor ignoring on ve and >66% armor ignoring on vh. not to provide a random fact, more like I've always wanted to know why this tower exists if we wanted all armor ignoring away? or is this tower affected by armor?

[0rb3r]

I see.. But I still personally think that the game was extreme enough to win it. Has the no leak replay posted?

As cisz said his replay was in a private beta, so you wouldn't be able to open it anyway unless you were in the testing team. Atm, I don't know of anybody else finishing 4.0 vh noleak, it looks like you'll have to be a bit patient though or try it yourself

By saying that the game was extreme enough to win what do you mean, Normal difficulty or vh or extreme mode?

[Cisz]

I'm working on a public beta version of my no leak. It'll take a while, but you will get to see it eventually.

[dvdlesher]

I played on VH, not VH Extreme... I'm still not an extreme player right now..

[0rb3r]

I was before on 3.0 more a vh player, not a good one, but i could keep things up on solo games. Now on 4.0 I am more than challenged to survive hard mode, so, to me it's like the game would have now one more difficulty level, the new vh.

vh has becomed really vh now, and normal difficulty isn't as far a sleep pill as it was on 3.0, if I want a challenge I dont need to go for extreme anymore, vh is a real damn challenge right now.

Btw, the extreme mode on 4.0 affects now mainly the game speed, its a must-try mode now. It makes sologames closer to the speed you experience on multi games.

[dvdlesher]

I agree, but at least a VH No Leak replay must be posted...

Anyway, if the composite was a "special" wave that reduces all damage (except composite to composite), then the "Goblin Shredder" wave was unfair right? They are composite, and also mechanical.. Unless, there are element-fused tower that has composite damage (Because from what I know, there are no composite damage tower in this map, except Arrow, Cannon, and Kindle tower).

That means, there are no other tower that has composite damage, and forcing us to kill that double buffed creep with no exception of composite damage tower...