Game Difficulty

[Guest FusionSlayer]

was it like that in 3.0 also? or only if race was turned on?

[Guest Sancdar]

It was always like that.

I like Orb3r's solution combined with the leak --> timer starts idea.

[Karawasa]

The solution proposed is interesting, but to make any use of it the timings have to be increased even more. I'm proposing actually making the timings more aggressive to cut down on idle time. Here is what I was thinking:

20/16/12/8/4

I believe (but only testing will confirm this) that even though lower difficulties are getting more $$$, they will not be able to spam as much, since they are also getting more creeps (almost twice as much for VE).

Dealing with spam should become more isolated with the new dialog system anyway. Now when host is choosing the options he can defer the choice to the players to vote on. There is no reason to not force a difficulty on people now (unless you actually don't want to do it), before some hesitated because of having to force the other options.

[Guest Sancdar]

The solution proposed is interesting, but to make any use of it the timings have to be increased even more.

No they don't. Why would it need longer times when it's designed to make the game a little faster?

I believe that even though lower difficulties are getting more $$$, they will not be able to spam as much, since they are also getting more creeps (almost twice as much for VE).

VE at the least can kill creeps as quickly as they come for the first half of the game already in 3.0, and can do it for most levels in the 4.0 betas so far. The creeps still end at the same time. This makes it much easier for good VE players, much easier for all VE players to spam, and a slight bit easier for new players - they get more cash sure, but with more creeps, if they do leak on any one level (healing or mech, probably), that's way more of their life total.

[Karawasa]

No they don't. Why would it need longer times when it's designed to make the game a little faster?

The idea behind the system is that longer times for lower difficulties won't delay a mixed game as much since if a harder difficulty player finishes the time will be cut. If the difference between difficulties is not great, then the intended effect won't do much in a lot of instances.

[0rb3r]

The "minor delay apliable" effect will affect specially VE players, which will notice a faster game playing a mixed multi then playing solo.

It will not affect VH players as they will in most cases cut the counter. The good thing is that VH players can play on multi competing against each other nearly ignoring the presence of VE players.

Normal dif players should not notice much of a difference.

It is not my intention to make the counter longer. Too long timing makes the game on solo horribly easier, and too short timing makes it easy to spam on multi, the core problem is still the same.

Comparing the "average" option and my suggested "minor delay apliable" option, I prefer my one becase "average" would make the game easier for VH players and it is imo out of question to make the game easier for anyone on multi. The game will get a bit harder for VE players but right now they will have more money as well, it would compensate a bit.

Lets go again to the core problem. With the same amount of creeps and the same amount of gold, building the same amount of towers a the same placement, how much faster will a VE player be able to clear before a VH player does? Not much.

The key is that a VE player needs less towers and can potentially get more money which ends up in having stronger towers than a VH player.

Considering that:

- Building on fast locations is a legitime way to push other players

- A VE player will have better towers than a VH player

- VH spawns have double hp and about 33% damage reduction due to extra armor (total ratio: take 266% more damage before killed)

- Nobody forces you to play VH on multi, specially knowing that you will get the same bounty

How much extra time should be considered to adjust your disadvantage as a VH player?

I think 10-12 seconds difference between VE-VH timer should be enough, and the timing should be about VHtime = VEtime x 2,66

So, 4/7/10/13/17 should still be fair.

Finally and in short, on multiplayer you should choose a difficulty that fits with your skills on money administration and interest looting, the way we are implementing the values, this will be 100% true. If you get spammed on VH on 4.0 its because you are misadministrating your resources somewere and your build is growing too weak.

[Guest Sancdar]

With the same amount of creeps and the same amount of gold, building the same amount of towers a the same placement, how much faster will a VE player be able to clear before a VH player does? Not much.

- VH spawns have double hp and about 33% damage reduction due to extra armor (total ratio: take 266% more damage before killed)

A VE player will be able to clear on the first pass of a two-pass location with the same towers, judging by your numbers. On 4, this is maybe 10 seconds faster (total estimation). On 6, this is a FAR greater amount.

Once again, I think that allowing easier difficulties to get the same amount of money as players on VH will make the game much too easy for them. Once again, I rally for an increased interest rate and maybe a SMALL amount of extra cash, like just starting out with 70 gold. The early levels are easy for most players, and the increase to 70 gold will make it much easier. The later levels (and healing) have always been the worst on lower difficulties, so you need to adjust for those without making the rest of the game a snooze.

[0rb3r]

Alright sancdar. Finishing speculation I just checked how long a creep stays in the line of sight of towers on 3 and on 6.

The last creep of the row toke 18 secs to move from the moment he started being targeted by three arrow towers on 3 (bottom right) to the point he got out of range on the 2nd pass.

For location 6 (mid right) it was 21 secs. So, basically the VE timer should be close to 21 secs for VE players.

So, Karawasa's 20/16/12/8/4 is more realistic than my 17/13/10/7/4. But anyway, I think that building on 6 on multiplayer is pretty risky, doesn't matter the way you look at it.

And btw, VE has to be jus that, Very Easy, its for beginners (a noob will always find a way to die before wave 5), for ppl that has no clue of any strats and plays multi to watch other ppls strategies. We just have to make it hard for pushers to exploit that gamemode.

I'm really interested in more opinions. Don't be afraid of posting. Thoughts anybody?

[Guest Sancdar]

I think more than doubling the starting gold should be more than enough to push them through the early levels with no problem.

[0rb3r]

push them through the early levels with no problem.

The problem is not earlygame, its lategame, a easy player just doesnt has the cash to survive being a player without good strat knowledge.

Adding creeps makes the game give a Easydiff-player the same advantage during all the game. It makes the game be permanently easier. We just have to work out the details, hopefully soon.

[Guest Sancdar]

The problem is not earlygame, its lategame, a easy player just doesnt has the cash to survive being a player without good strat knowledge.

I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall here. This is what I've been saying the entire time. Giving extra creeps throughout the early game gives TOO MUCH extra gold. Giving extra interest and a higher starting gold gives extra gold only for later on, which is where the problem is.

[0rb3r]

I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall here.

Same here. I'm oficially getting headache and we are moving in circles.

We have 2 reliable options "extra interest for VE" and "full creep amount for VE", it is certain that we will give all diff. 70 starting gold.

We got "average diff." and "minor delay apliable" for in-between round delays as alternatives.

As no constructive posts are coming up from somebody else I'll let the decision to Karawasa and leave this thread as done.

[Karawasa]

I've already decided, now we just need to see if it is fair.

[Guest biyabo]

Between my friends and I, we always play VE to see who can get the most Ronald Kills. I'd rather that the overall game difficulty not be incereased as a flat rate among all the difficulty levels VE to VH. Maybe VE can stay the same in game dfficulty but VH gets much harder?

[Twilice]

This thread is like 1½ years old......

And it has already been fixed. Check the dates people, unless it is neccecary to bump a thread.

[jolin012]

actually, game difficulty has been discussed quite alot lately, and this would be a reasonable thread to post in about game difficulty, so it was a reasonable bump.

[Guest M45T3R]

How about removing the difficulty and put everything on Very Hard? On Battlenet there are simply too many whiners who cry and flame because it's "too hard". I don't know about the Europe servers, but on US servers you can't even get people to join if you notify in the game name that it's on VH for everyone.

[Guest Sancdar]

Well, I prefer to play on VH but it's not for everybody. Difficulty also depends on the other players in the game, since they set the pace for everybody else. I haven't had problems getting people to join my VHSRSMCM games on USWest or USEast though.

[holepercent]

Well, I prefer to play on VH but it's not for everybody. Difficulty also depends on the other players in the game, since they set the pace for everybody else. I haven't had problems getting people to join my VHSRSMCM games on USWest or USEast though.

same here.. getting a full house is never difficult for me.. i put pros only in game name and announce the modes before game starts.. almost all stay to play (even if they are eventually out before host starts leaking)...

[Guest M45T3R]

But it's no fun when 75% of people leave and/or lose at lvl 3...

[jolin012]

how about mix difficulty? although that is a problem when ppl that can play normal instead choose Very Easy. Perhaps though it helps when difficulties chosen are announced. I don't think -ma is enough though... IMO we should have difficulties chosen announced even if there are a lot of other infos announced.

[Guest Sancdar]

But it's no fun when 75% of people leave and/or lose at lvl 3...

And removing the choice of players to enjoy the game at their own pace would fix this how?

[Guest M45T3R]

Yes it would because it would force people to be accustomed to the difficulty. Adaptation is one of the nine characteristics of a living being.

[echinodermata]

No.

[Karawasa]

No.