A newbie's comment about Element TD Survivor 4.0

[Guest knowell]

I'm a relative newbie with this game and started playing it since the 4.0 public beta. I enjoyed it and now I play more than DotA.

In the public beta, I have reached about 30 something Ronalds in VH and about 500+ in Normal using several builds (similar but may vary a little). Using 6 elements sure gives more diversity to the game. I liked it.

Now, in the survivor 4.0, a lot has changed. The AOE slows became weak, the 6-element build now sucks. Flame and Ice doesn't give any slow anymore. And there is a very imba build ($$FDE...) that can kill lots of ronalds. In the public beta normal mode, I only reached 500+, but in the survivor I got 10,725 Ronalds using $$FDE! Using other builds, I couldn't even finish the game in normal mode?! That's why I'm saying its imba!

Playing Survivor 4.0 gets a little boring and repetetive by doing the same build over and over again. Now, most of my good playmates keep abusing that imba build and its not fun anymore...

In HolePercent's guide he mentioned finishing the game by trying all possible 4-element combinations. I think all of those combinations have some more or less fair chances of finishing the game. In this Survivor 4.0, if you try to use other 3-element builds against the $$FDE, I would say they are far too much behind! I think no other 3-element build can even compete with F+D+E.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the work you're doing for this map. I just wanted to help develop my favorite map by giving my comments.

[Karawasa]

I would say that having the 6 element build be too strong ruins the diversity of the game. The nerfing of this build was critical.

On a similar note, having an imbalanced 3 element build isn't acceptable either. In fact, 3 element builds are not even supposed to be viable.

What is the consensus on $$FDE?

[m0rph1ing]

In multiplayer, if you rush the person trying to interest whore, they will die. I tried the $$DEF build playing at 4/5 and didnt do nearly as well. Died on level 50 I think. DEF in general is probably viable, since the towers themselves cover weaknesses very well. I'm sure I could beat the game with DEF+double essence. That was the first build I tried on 4.0, although it was on VHXSM.

Imo, without the $$ opening, the only 3 element builds that are viable are WNL and DEF. It would be hard to change that with nerfs because the reason they are viable is because of elemental strengths/weaknesses, not because of an imba tower. That being said, interest is probably slightly too powerful. I think interest should be nerfed slightly and not come up in random at level 50 or later.

[Guest knowell]

I would say that having the 6 element build be too strong ruins the diversity of the game. The nerfing of this build was critical.

On a similar note, having an imbalanced 3 element build isn't acceptable either. In fact, 3 element builds are not even supposed to be viable.

What is the consensus on $$FDE?

I agree with the nerf on the 6-element build.

But I still think FDE is too strong. LNW is far behind. The two builds should be at par with each other. Other 3-element builds are not viable.

Also, no more slowing duals?

[Guest knowell]

Imo, without the $$ opening, the only 3 element builds that are viable are WNL and DEF. It would be hard to change that with nerfs because the reason they are viable is because of elemental strengths/weaknesses, not because of an imba tower. That being said, interest is probably slightly too powerful. I think interest should be nerfed slightly and not come up in random at level 50 or later.

Haven't seen a replay with LNW performing as good as the DEF. DEF is imba because of blacksmith+magic combo. nothing in LNW can even come close to that.

[jolin012]

magic is likely to hit a nerf and soon enough you will probably see other builds out there than FED, cause that's what we're aiming for. and yes 6ele was nerfed cause that was the only viable build. remember that blacksmith is not the only strong booster. try well tower or trickery tower and max those. Why teh slowing duals were removed was due to balance reasons. th ey appeared in some builds but not others.

[Guest Sancdar]

The difference between DEF and LNW is that in LNW there isn't a strong damage dual for Well3 to boost. This happens in a lot of WN 3-element builds. Overall I'd expect the LD and FE sets to be a lot more successful, although any build with Trickery takes more micro early on than most players want to put in.

WND - disease, poison, drowning - This can probably rush pretty well, but it's weak to darkness and water.

WNE - mushroom, hydro, flesh golem - No strong water to cover the heavy nature damage other than pures. Fleshies make for a slow game because they have a high effective range. Mushroom is one of the worst of the ST damage duals to combo with Well, possibly the worst.

WNF - flame, vapor, impulse - Again, no strong water to cover the heavy nature. It's also a slow build because of the range thing.

WNL - ice, life, tidal - Strong water, comparatively weak light.

[Guest Phaust]

I must say something also.Im used to play -allrandom everytime I play the map, multiplayer or solo; and now, with the 6 build nerf, im having a very hard time to finish the map even in normal.In fact, I haven't ended it yet, im always stuck on lvl 56(composite undead) or 58(mechanic).I know, I have a lot to learn yet, but,im amazed that lvl 2 triple towers still have the 30% slow where as lvl 1 triple towers does not.

The terrain change, is, awesome from my point of view, makes the game more smoothly to watch, and also,the new modes(scared of ultrahard,I cant even finish normal in -random).

Still, the 6 element nerf and no dual tower slow was a hard hit for me, a random fanatic.But I like a lot the map, keep the good work! I'll get used to it.

PD:Fun build:DFLW, mass aoe, Frost helix+poison+vapor+tornado+radius XD!

[jolin012]

Mushroom is one of the worst of the ST damage duals to combo with Well, possibly the worst.

Because?

And Phaust - balance will keep changing, the 6ele will probably get stronger again if it is true that it is weaker than the other builds. (but not be the strongest of them all, and you'll probably have to start with 4 element types, and make those level 2, before you add a 5th and finally a 6th element to the build.

[Guest Sancdar]

Mushroom is one of the worst of the ST damage duals to combo with Well, possibly the worst.

Because?

There's a limit in WC3 to how much attack speed can be boosted, as far as I know. I don't think the huge boost off Well3 fully benefits a Mushroom with its ability active. Even if it did, +speed added to +speed gives less of a dps boost than +speed multiplied by +dmg does.

[m0rph1ing]

Mushroom+well works similar to Magic+Blacksmith. Well lowers the cd on Mushroom's ability.

Ironically, WLN was stronger when ice was a water dmg tower, although it was too powerful at the time. Jolin beat the game using WL with Ice covered by Focused/Refined/Pure Light. Adding Waterfall only made this easier.

[jolin012]

yes. well with mushroom lowers the cooldown, which is calculated to accurately make up for the wc3 boosts always based on base damage.

about the max speed cap, I dunno about that. it needs to allow 1.5 speed +400%. meaning 0.3 sec/attack. ( 3.333 attacks/sec )

Perhaps karawasa or someone else knows the wc3 cap of either max attackspeed or max attackseed % boost.

[echinodermata]

curse us for not making things the support towers symmetric on the element circle...

(not suggesting we change it, it's too late for that now, and it has been too late for a long time)

[Cisz]

That's mrchaks fault, and I guess we owe him one or two.

[Twilice]

There could be a little problem with mushroom having an attack animation.

Because with it's 1100 range it does appear to miss alot off attacks to the other side off the cliffs, but not when it has the attackspeed raised.