[New Mode] DotA Mode

[jolin012]

Hey Ho! It's time to announce a new mode again - how about a New hero Mode?

The reason it was removed was cause it was too difficult to balance and well... it'll still be difficult to balance, but I think that if we want a hero mode we can get close enough. Close enough to make it worth, cause even if it's not perfectly balanced many people would enjoy it.

This is my thinking - if the mode is selected at the beginning of the game, every player may choose from 12 heroes. During the game, the builder will have an ability, transform into hero. the builder can transform into the hero, and the hero can transform back to the builder.

The likely strategy will be to be bguilder only when you build, and hero on the other time, since when you are hero you can farm creeps. The hero has AoE abilities that make good use here. All heroes have different abilities. 4 abilities i guess. If hero kills creeps you will get more gold than if your towers do the kills and experience will be gained nomatter if hero kills or is only present when towers kill creeps.

But beware - you cannot farm at all times - since enemy heroes may come to kill you! and they have dangerous SingleTarget spells! In hero mode you can move outside your maze, but cannot transform back to worker while being outside your maze. Maybe heroes will even be able to attack your towers and maybe towers vs heroes but the main focus is hero VS hero and if you kill an enemy hero, you will receive Gold and extra Experience. The enemies hero(builder) will be dead for some time, and respawn in his maze after some time.

Why this one would possibly be named dota mode would be if we got permission and used heroes from dota with the abilities they have. If so we could also copy some of their items and make able to buy for heroes.

If heroes would not be able to attack enemy towers the most reasonable for hero vs buildings would be that heroes at level 15 or higher(mid-lategame) have a frost breath from frost wyrm, so that a player cannot survive without his builder, since his structures alone cannot upgrade if they were attacked lately by frost breath. the aura of a builder would remove frost from buildings i guess. frosted towers would not be able to attack either i guess, so a mass leak if your enemy can keep large parts of your towers frozen wtihout himself dying.

I'm sure this mode would go very well with team mode if there is more than one team

and for complete confusion among the readers, your builder will also be able to die if he is in builder form when keeping attention, and he will most likely have lower health than your hero. oh - and maybe your hero will gain XP from killed nerby creeps while in builder form... maybe infact builder will be a hero in hero mode, without extra abilities, just so that you can see the level of the hero

[jolin012]

A good question is how many years it would take to code

hmm... maybe not, if the game mechanics are easy, and if we just copy 12 heroes from dota (with permission) and balance them after release when we notice imbalances.

[echinodermata]

i'm sure we have the capability of making our own heroes, no?

[jolin012]

Yes ofcourse we could if we prefer that. To have from dota (with permission) would just be an idea to

a) make it more popular most likely,

b.) cut down coding times

c.)make the friendship with our mates at dota stronger (if they like the idea)

I don't see a negative side of it but ofcourse we could make our very own instead if we want.

[Kaini]

First we should implement team mode

First impression: Interesting idea, I like it although I've got some doubts. Your mode has got the same issue as the Super Weapons Mode. Usually I don't have the time to mirco my towers, makro my base and then I should additionally micro my hero and defend my base!? Sounds very stressful...

[jolin012]

choose what to micro

besides - you can't be builder and hero at the same time, which is a bit less micro possible.

[jolin012]

Ok - I spoke to kara about it and the only minor coding problem seems to be the transform bit - since the hero has to keep his XP while you as a player are controling only the builder. It cannot be the same unit, with changed abilities and model, since they are different types of units - hero unit and builder unit.

This leads us to the fact that the hero has to be "hidden" when in builder mode, and vice verse. The Easiest way I guess would be to Freeze the Hero (when builder in use) and put him next to the killed elementals. when clicking transform the builder and hero would swap location and freeze/unfreeze. frozen means invulnerable and can't be used for anything other than transforming into use again. The problem would be if people click the hero button and try to use it while it's frozen - but hopefully it's enough with an ability even on the frozen unit to switch which of the units (builder/hero) that is active.

Edit: Spoke some more, and using what Dota have, called bloodstone, which means the hero can be dead and still gain xp from an area he is not. this means, when you switch from builder to hero the builder dies, hero is revived and takes the location of the hero. so - no frozen hero next to elementals.

Edit2: before talking to the dota guys, I will be thinking some about ideas for which heroes (if we copy theirs) will suit well. I will probably post some suggestions here, and explain to non dota players. anyone else my ofc suggest too.

[holepercent]

Fun stuff.. again, it's only more for beginners and those seeking some extras out of a regular tower defense..

or a special wave where each player can summon some creeps and his hero to another player's maze to destroy towers. for that wave would be a towers v hero wave.. something of the concept of the siege rounds of burb td if you know that map..

[jolin012]

only for beginners would be reason enough, but I definitely think at least I would enjoy this mode, just like I would enjoy Super weapons(except in FFA since all attacks the leading one!) if it had big bombs.

[Twilice]

If you give the unit a "locust" ability it can't be klicked and gets invulnerable.

And changing the model to .mdl should work since there will then be no model. (or delete shadow and set transparency=100%)

Got no idea how bloodstone works though.

EDIT: I was wrong, you can't add/remove locust from a unit with triggers it seems like. Idk about jass.

EDIT2: tried to convert to custom text and delete ability "Aloc" but with no succes. I guess my way didn't work.

[jolin012]

Bloodstone works like: Get XP from an area where you are Not! Even if you are dead! that way the hero can be "dead" while you use the builder, and still gain XP, not and being able to click the hero icon.

[echinodermata]

we obviously can't name it dota mode because no ancients are being defended

[Exodus]

Got no idea how bloodstone works though.

With triggers you can add XP to a hero, even if he's dead.

[Guest M45T3R]

And how do you expect to micro your hero on VH? It's not like we don't have enough on our hands with interest whoring and building/upgrading.

[Twilice]

If you played dota this is lika a deathmatch or "wtf" mode.

Your only doing it for fun. Soom people like to have 1 thing to focus on.

[jolin012]

As mentioned before - choose your micro. you don't have to micro your towers&hero. maybe you decide to let the fleshgolems not move at all except for killing elementals. and it's not like, you will lose this game if you can't micro builder+hero+towers extremely well - unless your opponents do it better

[Guest Sancdar]

Ok - I spoke to kara about it and the only minor coding problem seems to be the transform bit - since the hero has to keep his XP while you as a player are controling only the builder. It cannot be the same unit, with changed abilities and model, since they are different types of units - hero unit and builder unit.

This leads us to the fact that the hero has to be "hidden" when in builder mode, and vice verse. The Easiest way I guess would be to Freeze the Hero (when builder in use) and put him next to the killed elementals. when clicking transform the builder and hero would swap location and freeze/unfreeze. frozen means invulnerable and can't be used for anything other than transforming into use again. The problem would be if people click the hero button and try to use it while it's frozen - but hopefully it's enough with an ability even on the frozen unit to switch which of the units (builder/hero) that is active.

Edit: Spoke some more, and using what Dota have, called bloodstone, which means the hero can be dead and still gain xp from an area he is not. this means, when you switch from builder to hero the builder dies, hero is revived and takes the location of the hero. so - no frozen hero next to elementals.

Edit2: before talking to the dota guys, I will be thinking some about ideas for which heroes (if we copy theirs) will suit well. I will probably post some suggestions here, and explain to non dota players. anyone else my ofc suggest too.

If you've played the Personas AoS map, they figured out how to do it in an amazing way.

[dvdlesher]

DoTA also relies on items which every hero would and should carry... But on eleTD, we aren't supposed to sell items to hero, right?

[jolin012]

We might get itemshops yes, which may or may not be in the first version of the mode.

[Karawasa]

Bump.

[Karawasa]

Bump again. This is the PvP idea that would do much better than Super Weapons in my opinion.

Here are some thoughts:

-Items seem like they would be an additional layer of complication that are not needed.

-There is plenty of reason to copy abilities from DotA, but we can certainly make our own too. Either way, I am not in contact with Icefrog these days so assume anything would have to be coded by us (which is fine).

-How to deal with levels and XP? Can you only level up when in hero form? Creep kills give a small xp bounty, hero kills a large one? The stats would need to be done better this time so that the hero grows with the game properly.

-Why for beginners only? If we do it right I imagine a mode that potentially may rival the main game. It offers a hybrid gameplay that takes competition to the next level.

-Time to start brainstorming again. If not in WC3, we will certainly see this in the next incarnation of ETD.

[Karawasa]

Mode ideas as of this post (feel free to disagree, but post it!),

• Select hero at start of game. Selection process would work exactly like Draft Pick.
• Ability to morph between hero and builder. 1 second delay. Can only morph in your own area.
• There would be no items. There would be no hero vs. tower combat.
• Hero is meant as both defensive (help your towers) and offensive (steal creeps and kill heroes).
• There would be creep stealing. Otherwise, catalyst for combat isn't really there.
• Hero would scale with the game better than previous incarnations. How should its power compare to towers? Should it be stronger than the average tower?
• The summoning center would act as an HP/MP fountain (for your hero only).
• Hero kills would be rewarded with large bounty (say 10x the current level's bounty) and XP (same thing).

[Bhelogan]

[*]There would be no items. There would be no hero vs. tower combat.

I would expand on this a little. Heroes cannot target any tower. Towers cannot target Heroes with the exception of your top tier towers (3rd tier dual, 2nd tier tri-elements, or the periodic towers). This would give you some motivation to think out your build to defend against heroes as well as kill creeps. It would also remove the possibility of having an over fed hero wipe out another players towers completely.

[Twilice]

I would rather have the hero be able to kill towers aswell as tower kill the hero.

Some notes, if a hero kills a tower the tower is sold.

The hero should be the builder and when the hero dies the builder dies. (but the builder can't be killed in your building area, and you can't be builder in other areas)

[holepercent]

It was discussed in the irc, for tower v hero, single target towers would always win. And how much damage and hp the hero has? A teleporting 'flesh golem/quark tower(of betas past)' in the opponent's area? The player still has to deal with the wave though. Something like against elementals.

Hero is expected to be stronger than the average tower, but at the same time, with creep stealing, the hero must balance with the towers and both have a somewhat 'equal' chance of taking creep kills.

The player has to choose between hero and builder at any instance. Player can only switch between hero and builder in his own area. The player must change to hero in his own area before teleporting to opponent's area and cannot change to builder once in opponent's area.