Can I get some help?

[Guest Silfarion]

Ok, I recently made few replays, and (I might look pathetic to you guys though) these 2 replays are actually the first ones I managed to beat normal, and can you give me few suggestions?

ele TD normal AR .w3g

ele TD normal AR 2.w3g

[Cisz]

You can.

I'll take a look into them now, stay tuned for high class technical advice from the guy that just can't shut up.

Edit 01: You used an old version of tft and used a bad folder for your map. The old game version is ok, just, if you don't have the latest patch, it would be nice if you told us before. But using a non standard map name or path is not ok, please move your map file, so we don't have to move around ours. The rules about replay conventions are here. It can be really annoying to meet 20 different names and locations, so we are pretty strict about this.

I'll take my time to move my map for this time, so you owe me one.

Edit 02: The first replay looks pretty solid to me. You fail on the second element, but that's no big deal. Your placement during the opening is not the most cost effective or fast one, but as you don't leak I have no real reason to complain. Just what you do with flame is not working out at all imo. I would say you should not use this tower as a damage source, it's a supporter. You are pretty fast to adapt, and catch leaks properly. You have understood damage types and your tower placement after the opening is basically correct.

Your only mayor failure was wave 21 (fire undead). You keep your impulse, but that's a bad sollution here for beeing no splash and for beeing the wrong dmg type. And your water cannons and towers come to late. I think you would do better with selling the impulse and mass amped water towers, or simply build the water towers much sooner.

Some smaller tips: If you ask me, the hail tower sucks in the pb, so don't use it. Especially if you allready have supernova, which is much better at light dmg. And when you have periodics, I wouldn't build a pure water. 2 Periodics are better.

On to the 2nd replay.

Edit 03: Seems I'm to tired today to properly comment on the second replay. Overall my impression is that you just need a bit of practice to get a bit faster, and try to play on hard. You may find that you have to place some towers a bit different, more efficiant, to get through hard. Have you seen this guide? It might help a bit.

Do you have more questions?

[Guest Silfarion]

You can.

I'll take a look into them now, stay tuned for high class technical advice from the guy that just can't shut up.

Edit 01: You used an old version of tft and used a bad folder for your map. The old game version is ok, just, if you don't have the latest patch, it would be nice if you told us before. But using a non standard map name or path is not ok, please move your map file, so we don't have to move around ours. The rules about replay conventions are here. It can be really annoying to meet 20 different names and locations, so we are pretty strict about this.

I'll take my time to move my map for this time, so you owe me one.

Edit 02: The first replay looks pretty solid to me. You fail on the second element, but that's no big deal. Your placement during the opening is not the most cost effective or fast one, but as you don't leak I have no real reason to complain. Just what you do with flame is not working out at all imo. I would say you should not use this tower as a damage source, it's a supporter. You are pretty fast to adapt, and catch leaks properly. You have understood damage types and your tower placement after the opening is basically correct.

Your only mayor failure was wave 21 (fire undead). You keep your impulse, but that's a bad sollution here for beeing no splash and for beeing the wrong dmg type. And your water cannons and towers come to late. I think you would do better with selling the impulse and mass amped water towers, or simply build the water towers much sooner.

Some smaller tips: If you ask me, the hail tower sucks in the pb, so don't use it. Especially if you allready have supernova, which is much better at light dmg. And when you have periodics, I wouldn't build a pure water. 2 Periodics are better.

On to the 2nd replay.

Edit 03: Seems I'm to tired today to properly comment on the second replay. Overall my impression is that you just need a bit of practice to get a bit faster, and try to play on hard. You may find that you have to place some towers a bit different, more efficiant, to get through hard. Have you seen this guide? It might help a bit.

Do you have more questions?

Thank you very much, it helped me (sorry about the replay folder BTW). I wanted to ask, is it better to build at numpad place 5 or 2? because i always wondered where to build while looking at the tower placement guide (i was studying and analyzing it for 1 month ) and i was always concerned to put it at a place with double 2-pass or a 2-pass and long pass combo.

[Cisz]

5 is the center of the map, a long pass, and no two pass at all. 2 is the middle of the lower ledge, neither two pass nor long pass.

I would say, play at 3 or 4 for two pass, and at 5 for long pass.

And what's a double two pass? I think you just made that one up..

[jolin012]

I think he means to spread his defense over 2 2passes, like combine area 4 and area 3. and the answer if that was the question is that there really is no reason to do that. you build at 4 which is less cost effective but to get faster kills. if you're gonna finish the creeps off at 3 you might as well place all towers there.

[Guest Silfarion]

I think he means to spread his defense over 2 2passes, like combine area 4 and area 3. and the answer if that was the question is that there really is no reason to do that. you build at 4 which is less cost effective but to get faster kills. if you're gonna finish the creeps off at 3 you might as well place all towers there.

Exactly, but what i was thinking was actually numpad 1/2 & 4, since both of them are 2 pass (and in the tower placement guide it says that 2 pass is actually better than long pass), so i was thinking is it a good idea to get some more kill by putting at both 2 passes, or should i just do a mass kill like you said or by concentrating at the place 4 or 3.

[jolin012]

concentrating at 3 is alot better than 4 and 2. 4 is not an entierly complete 2pass without slowing towers,(creeps appear at second pass before the last creeps left 1st pass) and that is why a few towers on 5 works in earlygame (a few temporary arrows there to hunt down a few creeps to concise creepwave length. else there isn't really a reason to combine 2 defence places. however -when we talk about longrange towers, like light tower or impulse tower those beong to area 5 because they're not 2pass towers. also quaker/kindle/tidal are examples of towers that belong to longpass. so concentrate your 2pass towers to area 3 OR 4. (if there is not enough space to build, build at 3 and 6) and your longpass/longrange towers at area 5.

area 4 2pass is faster, better for rushing opponents but harder for beginners. another god thing about area 4 is that it becomes a complete 2pass with slowing towers and that you have time to run builder to area 3 or 9 or "-"(area minus) and build arrow towers if you need to catch some leaks.

[Cisz]

what i was thinking was actually numpad 1/2 & 4, since both of them are 2 pass

Not true. 1-2 is not two pass at all. You need to place your towers further away from the end of the ledge for a two pass, to 3. Or are we talking about lategame with heavy slow?

It looks to me like you have a problem with understanding two pass.

[Guest Silfarion]

what i was thinking was actually numpad 1/2 & 4, since both of them are 2 pass

Not true. 1-2 is not two pass at all. You need to place your towers further away from the end of the ledge for a two pass, to 3. Or are we talking about lategame with heavy slow?

It looks to me like you have a problem with understanding two pass.

oh wait what am i saying? 1 is long pass right? (but isn't 2 a long pass too? it is almost same as 4 except that it is more faster)

P.S: by the way, if i compile both of your suggestion it seems that it is better to concentrate at 3 rather than 4, am i right?

[Cisz]

3 is slower than 4, and it's a true two pass (for non-fast waves). So I think it's both easier for you and your opponents if you play at 3.

"Better" could refer to "better for winning", in which case you probably should play as close as possible to the entrance. At "/" for example, or at 7.

Or it could mean "easier", in which case you should fall back to 9.

My advice is: Play as fast as you can manage. The list of two pass locations (from slowest to fastest) is: 8, 9, 6, 3, 4. And for longpass this goes: 9, 3, 1, 5, 7.

I would say: If you have problems at 4, fall back to 3. But try to return to 4 as soon as you can manage it.

[Guest Sancdar]

2 is a hybrid, it has the disadvantages of both without the advantages of either.

Long-pass is for towers that do damage to an area around themselves, so you want as much of the path accessible as possible. Nova, Quaker, Kindle, Tidal, and Radius are all better here. Additionally, 5 is the long-range spot, because towers of 1100+ range function well there (although 1100 range must line the bottom/right half).

Two-pass is for overall DPS. The idea here is that you get the entire length of the wave to shoot, and then you get the entire length of the wave again the second time around to shoot. For most towers, the amount of time shooting is more important than the number of creeps in range at any instant (you can even out the comparison by trying to look at total damage dealt, which increases with time for single-target towers and with both time and number of targets up to the maximum for multi-target towers). Two-pass maximizes the time your towers can shoot despite decreasing the AoE potential. In EleTD, I think splash towers only need about 1 creep on either side of the target anyway, so you're not decreasing much. Shockwave-style towers also work better in two-pass placements generally because of the way the auto-targeting works, even without micro you'll still be shooting down a line of creeps most of the time instead of at 1 or 2 of them.

At position 2, even more than at 4, you aren't getting the full benefit of the two-pass because the front creeps will get behind your towers on the second pass before the back creeps have gotten past them on the first pass. Position 3 gives you both passes, as does most of 4 assuming that you can kill some of the front creeps on the first pass.

It looks like Cisz covered what I was going to say about "better" while I was writing the rest of this post. Pretty much the majority of B.net players play fairly slowly (by our standards), so 3 might work out for you. It certainly will in single player games. However, 4 is kind of the standard of decent players in terms of speed.

Playing at positions with significantly different speeds means you'll probably be doing something wrong. If you split at 4/3 for example, your efficiency in terms of damage/gold is highest if creeps get to the second pass of 3. If you kill them before that, you've overbuilt. If you don't kill them until then, your less efficient towers at 4 means you're just playing poorly. The other problem with a split-speed strategy arises in multiplayer (and split-speed often comes about from trying to catch leaks in multiplayer); if you are at 4/3 and the other guys is only at 4, you run the risk of having some of your towers still shooting at one wave while the next wave is coming around at them. Without being able to use your full damage output for this wave, you'll either leak or be forced to overbuild. Either way you're being forced into poor play.

[Guest Silfarion]

3 is slower than 4, and it's a true two pass (for non-fast waves). So I think it's both easier for you and your opponents if you play at 3.

"Better" could refer to "better for winning", in which case you probably should play as close as possible to the entrance. At "/" for example, or at 7.

Or it could mean "easier", in which case you should fall back to 9.

My advice is: Play as fast as you can manage. The list of two pass locations (from slowest to fastest) is: 8, 9, 6, 3, 4. And for longpass this goes: 9, 3, 1, 5, 7.

I would say: If you have problems at 4, fall back to 3. But try to return to 4 as soon as you can manage it.

2 is a hybrid, it has the disadvantages of both without the advantages of either.

Long-pass is for towers that do damage to an area around themselves, so you want as much of the path accessible as possible. Nova, Quaker, Kindle, Tidal, and Radius are all better here. Additionally, 5 is the long-range spot, because towers of 1100+ range function well there (although 1100 range must line the bottom/right half).

Two-pass is for overall DPS. The idea here is that you get the entire length of the wave to shoot, and then you get the entire length of the wave again the second time around to shoot. For most towers, the amount of time shooting is more important than the number of creeps in range at any instant (you can even out the comparison by trying to look at total damage dealt, which increases with time for single-target towers and with both time and number of targets up to the maximum for multi-target towers). Two-pass maximizes the time your towers can shoot despite decreasing the AoE potential. In EleTD, I think splash towers only need about 1 creep on either side of the target anyway, so you're not decreasing much. Shockwave-style towers also work better in two-pass placements generally because of the way the auto-targeting works, even without micro you'll still be shooting down a line of creeps most of the time instead of at 1 or 2 of them.

At position 2, even more than at 4, you aren't getting the full benefit of the two-pass because the front creeps will get behind your towers on the second pass before the back creeps have gotten past them on the first pass. Position 3 gives you both passes, as does most of 4 assuming that you can kill some of the front creeps on the first pass.

It looks like Cisz covered what I was going to say about "better" while I was writing the rest of this post. Pretty much the majority of B.net players play fairly slowly (by our standards), so 3 might work out for you. It certainly will in single player games. However, 4 is kind of the standard of decent players in terms of speed.

Playing at positions with significantly different speeds means you'll probably be doing something wrong. If you split at 4/3 for example, your efficiency in terms of damage/gold is highest if creeps get to the second pass of 3. If you kill them before that, you've overbuilt. If you don't kill them until then, your less efficient towers at 4 means you're just playing poorly. The other problem with a split-speed strategy arises in multiplayer (and split-speed often comes about from trying to catch leaks in multiplayer); if you are at 4/3 and the other guys is only at 4, you run the risk of having some of your towers still shooting at one wave while the next wave is coming around at them. Without being able to use your full damage output for this wave, you'll either leak or be forced to overbuild. Either way you're being forced into poor play.

okay time out, i am getting confused; i get what you guys are saying, but so is it better to put at 3 for much higher chance of killing, and just in case enemies got through 4, or is combination of both is better for killing ALL the creeps without considering the time taken?

Edit 1: because i am often able to finish off creeps by place 4/5, but mostly at mechanical or speed or regen, i often leak

Edit 2: Sorry for bothering you like this ( ), but i have another question; this is sort of off-topic, but at normal modes i often use LWFD build, but i am also thinking of using LFND or DNEF, which one is better? (yes, i know each has own goods, but i am just asking your opinion).

[holepercent]

if you can kill at IV V, play there. Some mech leaks can be handled by long range towers or partial relocating of towers (in random mode).

Splitting the defense up is not really a good idea as creeps would not have the debuffs (slows/armour reduction etc) unless there are 2 sets of support in play. As mentioned, if the creeps hardly get to the towers built at the slower area, you are overbuilding and wasting gold. If the creeps frequently reach the slower area, then it would be better to play everything at the slower area as your defense is not strong enough to play at the faster area..

another consideration is competitive multiplayer. if you play at IV and III, there is a chance of getting flooded by multiple waves by a player who kills everything at IV and you do not. The towers at III are firing at the previous wave while that at IV are firing at the incoming wave. This usually results in mass leaks and is difficult to recover from.

could refer to my guide for 4-ele builds.. every 4-element build is covered briefly there..

[Guest M45T3R]

Edit 2: Sorry for bothering you like this ( ), but i have another question; this is sort of off-topic, but at normal modes i often use LWFD build, but i am also thinking of using LFND or DNEF, which one is better? (yes, i know each has own goods, but i am just asking your opinion).

Get all six elements because they are way overpowered in 4.0pb, so you might want to enjoy it while you still can.

[Guest Silfarion]

Get all six elements because they are way overpowered in 4.0pb, so you might want to enjoy it while you still can.

But the problem is that if i get all six, i can't get either pure elemental (although i can get periodic) or get a powerful lvl 2 triple elemental or lvl 3 dual elementals.

[Cisz]

In the pb the periodic is so overpowered, that you shouldn't even think about getting any other pure.

Imo you should get this for maximum effect: L2, D1, W2, F2, N2, E2. You can't max any dual support, but you max a lot of tripple support; you get maxed storm, nova, polar, enchantment. You could also go for D2 and L1, to max acid, muck, roots, voodoo, but the result is a bit weaker. You should not level both L and D, as the trickery tower is still pretty messed up in the pb.

If you still are confused about how to handle vh on the pb, maybe get some some replays? You should be able to watch the double no leak replay. (You are using a 1.20e installation, right?)

[m0rph1ing]

I think the more important thing is to overbuild slightly for the harder waves. Especially waves like Composite+Fast(18) and Composite+Mech(32).

[Guest Silfarion]

In the pb the periodic is so overpowered, that you shouldn't even think about getting any other pure.

Imo you should get this for maximum effect: L2, D1, W2, F2, N2, E2. You can't max any dual support, but you max a lot of tripple support; you get maxed storm, nova, polar, enchantment. You could also go for D2 and L1, to max acid, muck, roots, voodoo, but the result is a bit weaker. You should not level both L and D, as the trickery tower is still pretty messed up in the pb.

If you still are confused about how to handle vh on the pb, maybe get some some replays? You should be able to watch the double no leak replay. (You are using a 1.20e installation, right?)

Hmm, i guess i will have to try that, thanks for the tip!

I think the more important thing is to overbuild slightly for the harder waves. Especially waves like Composite+Fast(18) and Composite+Mech(32).

And i guess that can work too (but it could depend on what element i have, especially if i will be playing AR)

[Guest M45T3R]

Lvl 18 is easy; just build 12 super arrow towers at position 4 with a good AOE tower at position 5, such as kindle or electricity, and you should beat it no problem.

The goblin shredder is slightly harder, but still very manageable. I usually build 12 fire arrow towers at position 6 in addition to my regular towers that I normally build at this stage of the game (4 AOE slows).

And always mass some arrows at mech waves.

IMO the hardest lvl of the game is 45 (vengeful spirit, composite): at that point you don't have any good towers left to build, and you are one element away from lvl 2 AOE slow, so what I do is build 36 fire arrow towers at positions 3, 6 and 9, upgrade ice towers and cross my fingers. Sometimes you leak, sometimes you don't.

Doing this will save you more money than overbuilding.

[Guest Sancdar]

The goblin shredder is slightly harder, but still very manageable. I usually build 12 fire arrow towers at position 6 in addition to my regular towers that I normally build at this stage of the game (4 AOE slows).

Why would you build 12 elemental arrows for a composite wave instead of ~34 super arrows? You lose significant DPS/gold using elemental damage against composite, and as long as you're expecting to take until the back of 6 you've got plenty of space to build in.

[Guest M45T3R]

Laziness mainly.

[Guest Silfarion]

Why would you build 12 elemental arrows for a composite wave instead of ~34 super arrows? You lose significant DPS/gold using elemental damage against composite, and as long as you're expecting to take until the back of 6 you've got plenty of space to build in.

I think building 12 elemental arrows are better, because if you want to get same damage as elemental arrow from super arrows, you need to build 3 of them, and building 3 costs more than a single arrow tower (besides, composite get 25 % reduced damage from elementals, while elemental arrows have 3 times the damage of the super arrow).

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

What? I'm not following your math at all.

Using 4.0PB values:

each super arrow gives 162 damage for 57 gold. That's a ratio of 2.84.

each elemental arrow gives 486 damage, but that's reduced to 364.5 damage vs composite. At 162 gold, that's a ratio of 2.25.

super arrows are therefore roughly 25% more cost-effective in this case.

Usually the best case though, is to build a crapload of super arrow towers, then right before interest hits, you sell a bunch, then right after interest hits, you upgrade a bunch to elemental arrows. The idea is to sell elemental arrows before interest and upgrade them after, so you get the benefit of the extra damage, but without the downside of the decreased interest.

It really depends on your interest-farming style though. Generally I just like to build a crapton of basic arrow towers and I don't really have a specific plan, just upgrade them and use my best judgment and usually it works out okay, as long as I built enough.

[Guest Silfarion]

What? I'm not following your math at all.

Using 4.0PB values:

each super arrow gives 162 damage for 57 gold. That's a ratio of 2.84.

each elemental arrow gives 486 damage, but that's reduced to 364.5 damage vs composite. At 162 gold, that's a ratio of 2.25.

super arrows are therefore roughly 25% more cost-effective in this case.

Usually the best case though, is to build a crapload of super arrow towers, then right before interest hits, you sell a bunch, then right after interest hits, you upgrade a bunch to elemental arrows. The idea is to sell elemental arrows before interest and upgrade them after, so you get the benefit of the extra damage, but without the downside of the decreased interest.

It really depends on your interest-farming style though. Generally I just like to build a crapton of basic arrow towers and I don't really have a specific plan, just upgrade them and use my best judgment and usually it works out okay, as long as I built enough.

Actually from what you said, i think i was wrong; 3 SA costs 171, while an EA costs 162 while damage becomes 364.5 as you said and plus of armor reduction. I guess i have to study more.