Light towers

[Guest Neverdweller]

after playing the beta many times, it seems to me that the light towers are a little unbalanced vs all other towers because of their speed and range.

perhaps making them exactly like darkness towers only dealing light damage would fix this, or just slowing them just a tad, the speed is really the problem because it hits quite rapidly and covers almost your entire area vs all other elements especially at lower levels it is far superior even against levels that are strong to light because it can hit them so many times.

if you think i am an idiot.... let me know

[Twilice]

Did you play on very hard?

[Cisz]

You are an idiot.

No, you are not, just kidding.

But you missed an important ballance bit here. If I play with nature and you play with light, who of us both will kill first? Answer: I will. Light, as well as all long range towers, suffers from a great problem: They need too much time to do the damage. Sure, they can fire all over the map, but while they do, two more waves come creeping in. Just compare the dmg/gold/sec of an amped light or dark (2.56) to amped nature (3.37). In multiplayer, range rarely matters, as there is someone racing you at 4. (Just in case you don't know what "at 4" means.)

So long range is underpowered. But what if we raise the dmg/gold/sec? Then long range is overpowered on those rare occaisions where range matters, such as single player.

[Karawasa]

Perhaps a balance can be found with long range towers. While it may not be possible to balance for all situations, we can at least attempt to balance it overall.

It sounds like a minor buff is needed to Light and Darkness. Perhaps slightly more going to Darkness.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

i agree with darkness needing more than light. i hate darkness towers atm o_o;

i mean the concept really fits with the nature of the element, but it just doesn't do a good job at actually killing things efficiently.

[Cisz]

Darkness does 200% the dmg at half the speed, so it's dmg/sec/gold is identical to light. It tends to have more overkill though.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

yes, so it is less effective in general...I guess the difference is not actually bad except for early on when the overkill matters alot.

That and mech waves, but light has similar problems there.

[Guest Neverdweller]

yes, i DID play on vhard, i dont really test on any lower difficulty.

and I have yet to have the problem of more waves coming in when using light.

they dont usually make it passed the bottom part of the map and if they do its not many so microing a tower or two to "snipe" it isnt hard.

later on you will of course need different towers, but for now i usually do get the highest light tower because of its range.

Darkness is just.. so weak, i remember when darkness was uber cheap cuz it did so much damage lol

[Cisz]

..on the other hand, light fires at allready dead targets more often, or wastes shoots on shielded mechs. So I'd say they are very ballanced indeed.

@Neverdweller - Do you by any chance play on northrend? Ask jolin012 or me for an introduction to proper speed.

[Guest Neverdweller]

actually a decent balance could come about by increasing the range of darkness and lowering it for light, giving more time to deliver the slower hits of darkness and less time to deliver the many hits of light

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

nah, I like the range as is.

..on the other hand, light fires at allready dead targets more often, or wastes shoots on shielded mechs. So I'd say they are very ballanced indeed.

I don't really know that it works that way...

so you're saying that darkness has more overkill (i.e. higher percentage of damage is wasted) whereas light has less but it happens more OFTEN?

ah. i see, because light fires fast enough to fire again before first shot has hit. Makes sense.

In that case, darkness is imbalanced simply because it is ugly =D

[Cisz]

Yes, light and impulse tend to fire two shoots when one is a kill allready. That's one more reason to micro.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

hmmm....impulse towers dont suffer from the same flaw that arrow towers do--namely, that if you spam right-clicks on creeps, arrow towers wont ever attack anything...

is arrow tower the only one that has this problem? I never really noticed, I just know that impulse definitely doesn't.

[Twilice]

It might be so that arrow has a certian animation point.

Don't know the true name by now.

The second one is backswing point.

The first I can't remember. Maybe just animation point

[jolin012]

light and darkness are equal in damage/second. Darkness has double damage but light has double speed, like Cisz sais. and the misses of light makes up for the overkill of darkness. although light can be easier avoided by micro perhaps, but that doesn't really matter enough to actually make a noticable differance. What Does make a differance is that high damage things with low damage get their damage concentrate so badly that they have hard to spread it. but I guess that will change now that prices are lower-> more towers.

[Guest Neverdweller]

I do realize that light does half darkness at twice speed and that more often than not it will attack dead creeps, but what your missing is that actually testing the two vs each other, light will defeat more creeps.

I'd say everyone can get to these levels using only 1 element and no composite once you get your first lumber.

darkness you can get to about level 26 just going all out darkness and interest rate.

light you can get to about 30 just going all out light and interest rate.

I find that trying to go third element too soon will destroy your anus on either one.

so hold off on that till you can get about 6 or so 3rd tier towers and you will get around 10 levels over where everyone else gets to, and keep some cash around for your interest if your killing levels decently.

just saying, every time it seems light will out perform dark no matter how I try it, I'm sure with different combinations you will get better things, but light has better slows combinations than dark does, all dark has is Muck/Root towers(roots is awesome btw), with light you can create Nova/Ice/WindStorm towers, the best slows in the game, just seems to me if you don't get either light or nature, late game its very difficult.

Light is just a bit much overall with its combos and out-performance.

I figure Cisz and 13est have played this map 10000 times over, but I still think light is better than darkness.

[Cisz]

Corrosion and voodoo do aoe effects, while polar and enchantment do st. And I'ts been only 1500 times.

[Guest Neverdweller]

yea i know Voodoo is great at dealing out damage

only 1500 huh lazier than i thought!

did you try going only light and only darkness with no composites?

o.o

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

if you really wanted to test, you would not judge an entire game (too many variables) but rather, for example, test X number of light towers/dark towers on wave X with or without micro and see what the result is.

i think another small factor, is elemental weakness. Using light towers vs darkness waves works great, but using darkness towers vs water waves just exacerbates the problem even more...

[Twilice]

Actaully I use light more then darkness.

It just feels stronger .

[Guest DevouringOne]

And I think that light is powerfull than darkness because light looses less dmg hitting tha armor of the creeps at VH creeps have 15 armor ... But I think that light and darkness need more power POOWEERRR . just 10% up.

[electronX]

Darkness deserves higher dps than Light.

Darkness range is 1100 (quite new), Light is 1500.

Darkness does higher one-shot, what means more excess.

(Say, it is (almost?) impossible to defeat a whole wave with one darkness tower. It is with light.)

[Twilice]

SSCHH!!!! That is a secret, they are not supposed to know that yet.!

But atleast towers aren't that unfair now, = darkness has 1100 range and more dps.

Light has 1500 and less dps.

Cisz or karawasa can edit/delete this if needed.

Or keep it if it isn't that big deal with leaked information, I mean it's not like it's dota.

[Guest Neverdweller]

I suppose they arent SUPER imba but I see I am not alone in seeing the results of light vs darkness towers.

that range and speed just.. gives too much DPS over Darkness as 13est said, 1 darkness cant take a wave but 1 light can. o.o

[electronX]

(Say, it is (almost?) impossible to defeat a whole wave with one darkness tower. It is with light.)

This is not that bad, after all. This happens mostly because of the excess.

If I need to get down a level with darkness, I simply build 4-5 of them instead of amplifying one. Then excess gets low (if they are also built spread).

At level 16, when elemental towers start to come in play, amplified / more normal is already needed.