yoitzhiok

That's why people do 1.01 instead of 1.1 :P. Call it 2.0.1, the big patch change.

Puzzled at the support gold increase. Too much of value? (Honestly I should crunch the number's for support value and add it to its net worth. Also, I guess I can start now. Gosh I hate you for the nature AND light values change. More math to do.

Wait I just realised. Rush + haste + camp spawn = Probably best rush start there is, since there's no wind-up time

Doesn't hail still do the same damage on crit? 4x 5000 = 5x 4000 Edit: oh wait I get it. Yeah but the ability used to hit the whole map anyways if placed in the center

Yo I told you. Decrease the max stack attacks, increase stack attack speeds. Your current formula cause 16 stacks to be slower than 15 stacks. THEN tweak from there. Edit: wait. Now as I think about it, the value doesn't decrease. Like it kinda plateaus around 14. Edit2: I'll plot a graph when I'm free.

WHAT. YOU BUFFED THE TOWERS I PEAKED TOP 100 WITH? Gg. Not telling which ones. Brb climbing to number 1 in hard mode only. On actual notes, I'm gonna be doing more number crunching in a few days, so keep your eyes peaked for updated tables and graphs. (I'll save the graphs as image files instead). Gonna see how how the water tower changes affect those % I wanted to show you. Also, why nerf hail tower QQ. 20% chance to do 20k, 80% chance now to do 4k, resulting in a damage average decrease from 8k to 7.2k per attack. Honestly though, the range increase is pretty blessed. Able to hit creeps from the spawn helps.

yay!

Oh yeah, a cool 'All Random' mode implementation could be that there are about 30 pre-set element combinations which will happen in that order, and everyone can't have the two pre-set combinations. This might be more interesting. Also, idk if this could be a feature (for both maps), but have newbie tips flash across the screen every x seconds. This setting could be turned off somewhere on the screen (like the leaderboard buttons and such). Display stuff like, "Fire does 200% against Nature, but watch out on Water stages as they only do 50%!" Ontopic: How about this. A 10% bonus damage for towers of different players attacking the same target(s). Like global-wide buff. This might encourage cross-building

Maybe it's just me, but the map looks messy as hell. Four players, six lanes, and unless there's a pre-set plan going on, everybody's either: 1) Mass building towers everywhere 2) Focused on their own 'lane' and not helping out. Met a couple of guys on the leaderboard one game. Didn't know. End up flaming the hell outta me and the new guy. Asked for towers like Blacksmith 3, didn't want to build. /rant/ With 6 lanes, bounty is at 1.5x of a normal game, minus the last five waves. Don't know how much that is so I cant give an exact multiplier. I really don't like the co-op version for pubs, but for playtesting sake, I'm gonna find three other people willing to try a strat out. Probably seems like the best if you wanna climb the leaderboards. As for 'for fun', it's so messy I can barely enjoy it. Better sticking to the solo map if playing alone. ------------ Towers ------------ People seem to favor long-ranged towers (coughlightcough) such as electricity and gunpowder. Played about 5 games, and those who, I could see, knew how to play the game, ended up only with these towers. Me, meanwhile, while trying to break the trend, played with Quake and the likes. The result? I can barely hold one lane while they're just tearing two lanes apart with ease. As usual, people still tried life towers, and I can say it's pretty effective you aren't trying to climb for leaderboards. Especially good with new players playing who don't know how to play. --------- Early (1- 15) --------- Very confusing. didn't know where to build. A lvl 1 dual-element is brain-numbingly easy, allowing you to last about 5- 10 stages. Didn't try arrow and cannon towers, but I'm pretty sure other then for leaks, they're pretty much obsolete in coop because of the increased cash. --------- Mid (15-30) --------- Game spikes pretty hard for new players, who often mass their towers, get random elements and build random towers. As for the experienced players, the hard decision is whether to help a struggling side or build more on yours for that one rainy-day wave (nothing more sad than bulky dark casually walking through a vapor tower). At this point, the difficulty almost equals to v.hard on the solo map because of the lack of gold and increased creep count / creep bulk. --------- Nearing the end (31-40) --------- Most people just die, ON normal. And it's not because we used to camp our spawn so that the poor life tower builds can't handle the rush. New players never make it past here, and those who do, do build towers like gunpowder, light etc. In the current game, there really is no space for short-ranged towers. ------- Pre-frog (41-50) ------- Only been through it once. Difficulty goes back down again because by now, you know what you're doing, and whatever you are doing /works/. You just kinda upgrade the T2 duals into T3 duals, build more T2 tri-elements, and save for Pure Element Towers. ------ UNLEASH THE FROGS ------ Not much of a comment. Usually last about 2 - 4 rounds unless interest was accumulated. Nothing really different from solo. ---------- In short, only play this with a pre-made team. Playing pub is pure suicide.

Eeeeeeeeeee. /happy

For Lightning tower tho, I guess if we look at it from a tower's PoV, we can classify all towers under a few categories: AoE, Single-target, support, damage, burst, slow-kill Compared to real AoE towers (like Poison), Electricity's AoE is okay, but single-target really just goes down the drain. It has no support, and unless it's four or five creeps running through, it doesn't pick up the stragglers effectively at all. It hits averagely. So... AoE/ST: ----o------|---------- 5 AoE Support/Damage: ----------|----------o 10 Dmg Burst/Slowkill: ----------|-0--------- 1 Slowkill So a far ranged tower with decent AoE, damage and no supporting attributes, which means it does consistent damage throughout It is meant for slowly withering the enemy down. Fire + Light means you can throw in Nova and Windstorm for slowing everything down, but really, it gets outclassed by Vapor (Fire + Water) for AoE, Light Tower for Single-target. Yet it can't strike a balance between those two to be any good (unlike Poison Tower, which is bae) I wanna say give it an additional effect where if there's no creep to be bounced to, the initial target takes 25% more. This makes it more balanced.

Pst pst pst, Elec still sucks ass.

ahh dammit does this mean I need to start doing more number crunching again...

I'm working on it...

Damn. A chart. I have been beaten.

Maybe it's just me, but I've reached score rank 77 yesterday solely without any slowing device whatsoever. On very hard only. If I tried on insane I would top 50 probably. Before frog, I had 350k going into frog, and ended with somewhere around 477k. I really doubt the amount of frogs I've missed made up for that extra speed I had.

Lol Noya. I was just thinking about Flamethrower's stacks. Good that it's getting fixed.

Also, I will create another thread discussing Nature Vs Light after I'm done with calculations, so as for now, hold all reservations regarding these two.

But I want forum posts count kappa. My excuse is that I forgot about something and wanted to edit, and the 'Edit' button on forum doesn't let me -- oh I'm dumb. I see the quote button now. Too lazy to select the parts to quote, so I'll just cover everything from top to bottom. Fire has similar AoE DPS to Ice Tower, which consists of more popular elements (Water and Light). That makes Fire 4 very underused (not to mention to the tower it builds into aren't too popular either). The tower's targeting function makes it so it'll hit the creep near the end of the tower range for about 4 - 5 times. I could suggest lowering its range but increasing its Attacks/Second. It definitely feels like a 'lame-man's Flame Tower'. The other 'lame-man's tower' is Poison Tower, -- an overglorified Cannon Tower-- although I've climbed top 150 with it. Frankly, the DPS of Nature Tower 4 and Light Tower 4 should act exactly as what you mentioned. However, given Nature's ability, it prefers to bottleneck creeps rather then slow the entire wave down, much like Vapor Tower. Its purpose should be different (bottle-necking is a little tough, but definitely doable; gonna test later tonight). If so, Light will not be able to out-DPS Nature at all. And if creeps are bottle-necked, why not just use Vapor to get rid of them all at once, and leave the few at the end to something like Dark 4? WAY more efficient. In short, Nature needs a small-rework. Every four hits does AoE damage? Haste doesn't have insane DPS, actually. It takes 10 seconds to windup from 1 DPS/Gold to 5 DPS/Gold. That means in that average of time, it's 2.5 DPS/gold, which increases exponentially until it approaches 5DPS/gold, but it'll never be worth 5DPS/gold. A good 20 second throw duration, I estimate, is about 4 DPS/gold worth on average? And to leave it firing for 20 seconds AND more, slowing towers are required, which begs the question, "Why not just use Nature (since it's part of it)?" It has higher DPS and no charge time AND an ability that works well in slow builds. I looked over my proposal, and it takes 5.5 seconds to windup to 4.5 DPS/gold, so on average, it should also be about 4 DPS/gold, but only around the 10 second mark. One option is to give it in active that lasts X duration. During that time, it's fast as hell, but after, it's slow. Hydro is weird. The active only hits after a second, which hits the target behind it. I've seen people use it; I've used it, and it's a decent form of AoE damage. I can't, however, compete with Poison Tower. I would say buff. will look at my old-love Electricity now

Without slows uptime no slows 2 30% slows roundtime 60sec 90sec 550 55.00% = 33s 24.44% = 22s 700 71.67% = 43s 40.00% = 36s 900 75.00% = 45s 48.89% = 44s 1150 90.00% = 54s 61.11% = 55s 1500 95.00% = 57s 94.44% = 85s Vapor 35.00% = 21s 28.89% = 26s I think your numbers are wrong though. Why would towers supported with slow towers hit for less time?

At least the other two are somewhat interesting

I've assumed tooltip is correct and it's supposed to burn for 3 seconds as intended. I'm definitely suggesting a fix where duration is 2.9 instead of 3 so it doesn't proc the last one. Unless the 4 ticks is intended, put duration as 3.9 and change tooltip description to 4 seconds. I've messaged a few people about this already. Nature wouldn't be 9.2 for the second calculation. It's a lot higher considering most of the creeps are lumped together (8+). But hey, interesting table though. May I ask how you got these numbers and what do they actually mean?

Oops. Fixed And yeah yeah, will work on crayon-ing the hell outta the data. But I'll definitely keep this Raw Data somewhere on a sheet. Actually, I suggested 15% jump decrease and a 33% buff to damage. I calculated the bounce of 5 (because that seems like the average without slows). And I feel like that change won't really help its case. It needs a damage buff + that. Also, what are your thoughts on the Haste Tower? I can't stand the windup, but once it's going, it's great. I'm looking to decrease the windup speed and BAT, but lower base damage so that DPS difference stays around the same. (Also, there's a fundamental error with it because at max stacks, it shoots slower than at 15 stacks. Just FYI (Parabola curve; it peaks downwards somewhere around 14 - 15)

Will work on it as soon as I wake up tomorrow. It's higher because right now in the game, the burn duration supposedly stays for 3 seconds, and it ticks one per second, and thus 3 ticks in total. After extensive testing, it does stay for 3 seconds, but hits for 4 ticks in total. This applies for all other DoT debuffs, as previously stated in PSA2. Light is harder to calculate in general. Because it's a linear growth when hitting a single target, I can only calculate when it equals or is greater than another tower's DPS (Nature 4, Dark 4 etc) on average after X amount of attacks. And that would mean another spreadsheet on its own, testing the DPS of Light vs every other tower (this applies to Quark too). This will be second-priority after decorating the data. In theory though, if you assign 1 Light Tower to each creep, the damage will never drop off until the end of each round. Efficiency is very tricky to calculate, near impossible :/ We're looking at DPS-loss not hitting creeps that are within tower range, as well as DPS-loss while not hitting creeps that are outside the tower range. We'll also have to look at where the towers are calculate total possible creeps around said tower. It also means that 900 ranged towers in theory, should be the most efficient given the small map size we have. That and Vapor / Nova / Quake tower who hits everything around them. 1150+ range towers may seem efficient since it hits the whole map, but it loses out some EP (efficiency points; just a fancy term) by NOT hitting the others. On top of that, 550 range towers seem the most inefficient, but they technically hit 50 or more% creeps that pass by, but once the creeps roll by, they lose all EP. Light seems good because you really can focus on that one target during frog stages, allowing easy 10 stacks on a light tower for massive damage before it dies and switches over.

And another one~