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Posts posted by WindStrike

  1. Woops, that was fast. Okay, I actually managed to fill out all the Support Tower Alternates, as well as most the rest. I've got 6 more that we need to finish up a working first draft. Of course, even then, not all of them are finalized, twill need Noya to check 'em over and make sure all of them are reasonably doable and/or won't cause severe lag by itself (so whatever it is, it can't create units), and then even once they're implemented, testing will probably shift things around some more. Either way, below is what we got so far, and we still need more suggestions, so suggest away!

    FYI, the first tower listed under each element combination is the original tower. A few of them got renamed to match the elemental damage type and effect more accurately.

  2. Alright, I apologize this got stuck on the backburner, but after co-op is done, we're doing this one next. I'm gonna be conglomerating the ideas and figuring out what we got so far and then what we need. List should be up in a day or so.

  3. While not as insane as Patch 1.5's Mega Balance Overhaul, this patch provides a lot of "tweaks", including making Fire Tower no longer useless. It also features some changes to the Scoring System and makes the game a little bit harder overall. Here's the patch notes!

    • General
      • The Networth Score Bonus has been reworked. Instead of being a multiplier based on a base amount, it now just gives you 1 Score for every 2 Networth.
      • The End Speed Score Bonus now scales at twice the amount.
      • Clean Wave Bonus has been increased from 25% to 30%.
      • Bounties on all difficulties for both Classic & Express have been reduced by approximately 5%.
      • Free Pure Essences have shifted from being given after Waves 45 & 50 to Waves 50 & 55.
    • Tower Balance
      • Cannon & Arrow
        • When selling the Elemental versions on All Pick, selling rounds up, meaning they sell for 128 Gold instead of 127 Gold.
      • Single Element
        • Darkness damage increased from 270 / 1890 / 13300 / 133000 to 300 / 2100 / 14700 / 147000
        • Fire getting an alteration on the ability. The ability will now only apply to the primary target.
          • Attack damage increased from 10 / 70 / 490 / 4900 to 18 / 126 / 880 / 8800
          • Blaze damage increased from 3 / 21 / 150 / 1500 to 6 / 42 / 300 / 3000. Still 3 seconds.
      • Dual Element
        • Now when you sell a Well or Blacksmith Tower, it will remove the most recent buff instead of a random buff.
        • Electricity damage reduced from 210 / 1050 / 5250 to 200 / 1000 / 5000. However, damage reduction per bounce altered from 20% to 15%, and bounce range decay per bounce altered from 30% to 33%
        • Gunpowder damage reduced from 42 / 210 / 1050 to 40 / 200 / 1000
        • Hydro damage increased from 420 / 2100 / 10500 to 450 / 2250 / 11250
      • Triple Element
        • Laser minimum damage increased from 30% to 50%
        • Jinx effect switch back to 3 ticks over 7.5 seconds, but the effect has been reduced from 10% / 30% to 6% / 18%
        • Polar no longer has that weird secondary effect that no one properly understands anyways, and the hp burn has been bumped from 10% / 30% to 12% / 36%. Damage decreased from 2000 / 10000 to 1800 / 9000
        • Impulse now has a toggle effect, allowing you to switch between "switch to furthest creep on each attack" or "focus down the furthest creep".
        • Gold now has a toggle effect, allowing you to switch between "switch to lowest hp creep on each attack' or "focus down closest creep". Effect increased from 25% / 30% to 25% / 35%
        • Muck down from 1100 / 5500 to 1000 / 5000
        • Enchantment down from 625 / 3125 to 575 / 2875
        • Erosion down from 150 / 750 per second to 140 / 700
        • Roots down from 120 / 600 per second to 110 / 550
        • Nova down from 300 / 1500 to 275 / 1375



    Patch is live!


    Also, within the next week we should have Co-op Mode out, so look forward to that as well!

  4. Huh, sell locking the income timer..... I actually don't have an issue with that. I'd probably just make it equal to their total build times.... except pures, those can enjoy a nice 15 second delay, lol. Yeah, I like that idea, though twould like to hear more input on it. Since it's not as immediate a concern, it probably won't make Patch 1.6, but it's something to consider for a future patch.

  5. Yeah, I looked into some things a bit more, as much as I hate the buy/sell tactic, while it originally did cause the highest scores on the leaderboard, various other tactics related to shenaniganing with slow-kill builds is the primary issue. The new Networth Score Bonus should theoretically help it, but it won't be enough. Something I'm trying is just tweaking the current End Speed formula, like doubling or tripling its effect, though unfortunately, I'm not a master of the slow-kill build, sooo I don't know if that's actually fixing it or not. Once the new Networth Score Bonus is in, I'll upload that to ETD Test along with trying double effect on the End Speed Bonus.


    Heck, there's another option, which is to alter the wave speed bonus, such that it seriously screws over builds intended to wait on killing the last creep until the very end, though I'd have to make sure that it doesn't completely invalid something like a standard double pass build using the right lane.

  6. Meh, I suck at math, but thankfully, the programmers have more brains than I do at mathing up some formulas. I still don't know when we're releasing this patch; we're hoping this week, but there's a potential obstacle with that, and not just work on the co-op version (which is close to done), but there's no way we're releasing this patch at the same time as Dota 2 Patch 6.87, or else all our hype up and whatnot for co-op will be for nothing. Should they end up releasing this week, we'll probably push back to the start of next week, which would give us plenty of time to test out both the Networth & Speed changes. If we're able to release within the next few days though, Networth change would happen for sure, not positive on the Speed change though.


    EDIT: Oh, it's supposed to be a minus, derp:

    • If your time is greater than 50 minutes, your score is multiplied by 1 - (5 * [(1 - (50 / Your Time)])

  7. Ah, regarding Express, I'm not saying a Networth Bonus is entirely necessary, just that removing or altering it won't really have that much of an effect, so might as well keep it for the heck of it.


    Regarding my estimations on the networths, I was actually pulling from Utoko's numbers from his own testing. As for increasing build times.. it wouldn't really fix it on the lower end, but that'd definitely fix it later especially when you're able to buy/sell a frigin' Pure Tower (or worse, two of them). There is a mode I actually fully support 100% random and buy/sell on because it's practically impossible to abuse - Random, Chaos, Rush, Express. Problem is, as ideal as that gameset is for all the tricks of the game required just to beat it, it's a rather niche mode that not many play and totally caters to the 1%. Anyhow, between increasing build times or 99% sell... shibby, that's a hard choice, but either way, I think I'd stick both of them as last resorts.


    Okay, Speed Bonus formula tweak. Technically, we don't need one fancy formula for it, we can split it into multiple formulas.

    • If your time is equal to or less than 50 minutes, your score is multiplied by (50 / Your Time)
    • If your time is greater than 50 minutes, your score is multiplied by 1 + (5 * [(1 - (50 / Your Time)])

    Aka, for each minute over that threshold, you lose 5%. Well, bit of an arbitrary number thar, but it's a fair point to start out.


    And yeah, we'll try out the additive Networth Bonus rather than completely axing, but only half, so 2 Networth = 1 Score.



    1 hour ago, ArthurDent said:

    Anyways, I am sure you will find a good solution to this, as you managed to improve the game with every patch so far.


    Funny story, every patch prior to Patch 1.5 kept exaggerating a particular problem till it finally hit me "oops, I screwed with the core balance of the game without realizing it, we need some really big changes to fix it". We do try to look at what the biggest issues are each patch and try to fix them, but sometimes, there's some underlying problems that we don't even consider until it grows and grows and eventually punches us right in the face. We actually did know about this Networth/Speed Bonus issue prior to Patch 1.5, but because that patch essentially changed the game, we didn't wanna screw with the scoring system until afterwards.


    Thanks fer the input, and keep it comin'!

  8. Oooh it's way more than 100k. See, how a lot of those top builds work is using a dumb abuse trick (that unfortunately, too many players like to just remove it) that gets them stupid amounts of networth. How the networth bonus at the end of wave 55 works is:

    • Your Networth / Base Networth
    • Base Networth = the combined bounty values of all creeps

    And then it's just a straight multiplier. On Insane, it's roughly 100k networth. With the buy/sell abuse trick, players are getting anywhere between 200k and 300k, meaning a x2 to x3 multiplier. The base score for Insane, without any modifiers, is about 200k. On all pick, even if you run a slow build, you can get maybe a x1.5... at best. On random, if that's going up to a x3, that's still a 200k score difference.


    Additionally, more networth = naturally stronger defense = more frogs killed = more score anyways, so it's a rather redundant measure on top of frog score. It's not redundant on Express cause there is no boss wave afterwards, plus trying to interest abuse in Express... there's not enough time for it to truly accumulate into broken levels of brokenness.



    That said, going based on the penalty system you suggest would be a little... iffy. Main reason being, yes, that would work....... for the top 1% of players. A very large chunk of the playerbase clears slow naturally, not because of abuse, but because they're not masters of the game yet, and whether they're playing for score or not, suddenly seeing their score of 250k suddenly drop down to 100k for reasons they don't understand would be a very big ".... huh?"


    There is another option we're considering that'd be somewhere inbetween what we have now and straight out cutting out the Networth Score Bonus. Someone suggested that instead of the Networth Score being a multiplier, it's a flat amount. 1 Networth = +1 Score. For anyone using All Pick, they probably won't notice it at all, but for anyone on Random with their Buy/Sell Abuse shenanigans, that'd nerf 'em a fair 100k to 150k score, and even more due to Speed being the only multiplier left. It's probably not quite enough, so maybe even 2 Networth = +1 Score.



    To be honest, the No Networth Score Bonus hasn't been tested yet. We're still working on it, if it proves to not be enough, we'll try out other alternatives, ie tweaking the Speed Bonus, trying the Non-Multiplier Networth Score Bonus idea, maybe even trying a steeper penalty (though with an altered formula that doesn't screw over the majority of the playerbase).



    The last resort we've got would be to directly nerf Buy/Sell Abuse by going with 99% sell. The reason we're not doing yet is because although it is a huge issue with regards to the leaderboard, it would effectively nerf everyone that isn't doing Buy/Sell Abuse. Other alternatives have been proposed, but ultimately, they all still nerf everyone else, so... they're on the backburner, it is an option, we're just not relying on it yet and seeing if we can alter something like score that doesn't actually potentially break the balance of the game.

  9. Fire Tower actually wasn't intended to hit for 4 ticks, but seeing as it's considered largely underwhelming, that doesn't actually bother me. We miiight be simplifying its effect down some, dunno if it's gonna happen next patch or not, cause it's really a lame-man's Flame Tower. If not simplifying it, then we'll do some damage bumping. All the abilities are intended to be minor abilities that just help fix the tower's weaknesses/synergies. That's the case for Dark, Light, & Nature, but the other three we have are kinda... arbitrarily tacked on. I'd vouch for them not to really bother having minor abilities cause they all have different Range & AoE, buuut someone on the team absolutely insisted otherwise.


    Regarding Light Tower & Nature Tower. It doesn't surprise me that Light Tower, with slow-killing builds, will deal more damage than Nature Tower, the issue with that is the caveat of speed.... which totally doesn't make a difference in current meta and I'm hopin' to try and fix that next patch...... maybe. In the Frog Waves, it'll probably deal more damage overall given it can hit the whole maze. That doesn't bother me because to me, Nature Tower is much more of a bursty finishing tower. For speedier builds or acting just as a finisher, Nature Tower > Light Tower. For sheer, but slow, damage output, Light Tower > Nature Tower.


    And then there's the case of "microing = more damage output = Light > Nature for sure". Yes, that's true, but... if at all possible, I'd prefer to avoid balancing around that, because 99% of the playerbase doesn't micro their towers. If anything, I'd like to find way to alter and improve the game that makes the game more about strategy, timing, and placement, not microing and APM.



    For Haste Towers, these.... I just don't get. They just fall off late-game despite their insane DPS/Gold Value, even if you get them set-up so the wind-up isn't really a problem. I'm not sure if reducing the wind-up and dropping its DPS would fix it, but I'm also generally reluctant to buff it cause early-midgame, they frigin' rock. It was a weird issue in the SC2 Version as well.



    By the way, you guys know that you can quote multiple responses in one post rather than double or triple-posting, lol.



    EDIT: A little hotfix patch was applied today, mainly fixing up some localization and naming stuff. In that patch, Electricity can now bounce back to the same target multiple times, so try it out, lemme know if it's still a little too weak or not. While we're at it, one tower I've received literally 0 feedback on is Hydro Tower and am curious to hear if it needs buffing or not.

  10. I do believe you mean Vapor Tower, not Tidal Tower on the 46500% multiplier, lol. Anyhow, thanks for the chart! If you could color it a bit to help the organization and maybe bring back some of the decimal places so it looks cleaner and easier to read, that'd be awesome. Pinning this! And moving it to the Strategy section to replace mah old sheets.



    By the way, regarding the underwhelming Electricity Tower, we're trying out a fix for next version, which allows its attack to bounce back to the original target. Meaning, if it's shooting at two targets point blank to each other, instead of bouncing once, it'll bounce all 10 times. I ran a test of it, it pretty much fixed the issue with the tower, cause unless it's shooting a solo target, it's consistently bouncing 5+ times, meaning it no longer falls off horribly. Now, it could still theoretically be considered weak according to the public, so I'll let people try this change out next patch, see what the general opinion is, and if it's still weak, we'll try something like you suggested of 5 bounces.

  11. How is it every version of EleTD, this idea, with various variations (and redundant redundancy) is suggested multiple times by different people every time. Also, forum posts OP, pls nerf.



    Anyhow, I think I'd consider this as the alt tower, mainly cause yeah, that could be too much micro for casual, so rather than replace Electricity, just have it as an alternative. Though, I'm curious, why would the damage be stronger at longer ranges? Also, if it's too controllable, it might as be the old Windstorm Tower, which was capable of hitting the whole map as well. Yes, Hail can technically hit the whole map, just not 24/7.

  12. Heh, that's kinda like the old Tidal Tower (which is totally making a return if we ever get around to working on the darn alt tower feature idea). Right now, the reason all towers are set up to be "build it and leave it" with no micro actually needed is initially, the balance of the dota version will match the balance of the mobile version, and there's way to micro in that version due to interface issues. However, once the mobile version is out and we start taking the games down separate roads, the balance will shift, and in all likelihood, we'll bring back ideas that allow some degree of micro, ie something like the one you suggested, though... that would require a little too much micro for my tastes, plus yeah, that could get a little too abused. The tower works, but as Utoko says, the elements and builds it goes into are not really that good with it, and that's the idea of the alt tower idea, to fix all those builds that have a bunch of weaknesses and provide a ton more playstyles and builds and yadda yadda.

  13. It's so mindblowing I just can't even. I feel like we need to take this up a notch. Element Piano Mode...... now a merge of TD + Guitar Hero + Bullet Hell. Random projectiles fly in, forcing your builder to dodge. Your towers can't dodge, but if you click on them right as a projectile would impact, it instead causes a different piano note to play.


    I think we just invented a new genre. Excuse me while I commit seppuku out of happiness.

  14. Honestly, that's just an old design thing we've had in place since the original version and never bothered thinking about changing. I noticed, in testing the most recent patch, at least, trying to balance the 550 Range towers were really a pain, cause they need to be high enough damage to justify their range, but if they're too high, they just completely steamroll the waves. We actually flipped the ranges on Disease and Moss towers, cause Disease was really unwieldy, and Moss's job was to weaken, so at 550 Range, it made sense.


    Other than Fire Tower, what other tower ranges do you find are "really odd"? I know Quake is also intentionally low, though it probably shouldn't go any higher than 550 given its capabilities.

  15. Well, due to the custom game passes, we actually had to take down our own donation system, that'd be why.


    Annnd we'll try to get the on-site tower stats up-to-date later today, I believe they're still on 1.4

  16. Incoming mega patch! Patch 1.5 is the largest patch to date, featuring the return of Elemental Cannon & Arrow Towers, a Custom Game Pass, and a ton of balance changes. Way more builds, element orders, and play styles work better than before, and you no longer get screwed over half the time on Random. In fact, it's arguably easier to play Random than it is All Pick. Check out the patch notes below!

    • New Features
      • Elemental versions of Cannon & Arrow Towers are finally (back) in the game! Upgrade cost of 80 gold, total cost of 130 gold, and with x3 damage. They require their respective element in order to be unlocked.
      • We now have a Custom Game Pass (click here). You can purchase it in Dota 2 for $1, which supports our development of the game and unlocks the following goodies for you:
        • Access to Player Profiles, Friend Leaderboards, Lifetime Stat, Match History, & Ranking Achievements
        • 6 Element-themed Custom Builder Models
        • When selecting the game modes, your vote is worth twice as much
        • Extra flair on Player Avatar
    • HP and Scaling
      • Classic Base Creep HP increased from 40 to 75. HP Scaling reduced from x1.184 to x1.168 per wave.
      • Express Base Creep HP increased from 90 to 150. HP Scaling reduced from x1.329 to x1.304 per wave.
      • Difficulties altered.
        • Normal = 100% HP
        • Hard = 130% HP
        • Very Hard = 160% HP
        • Insane = 200% HP
      • Elemental Boss Base HP increased from 300 / 1500 / 7500 to 500 / 2500 / 7500
    • Bounties
      • Classic
        • Normal - 52050 increased to 75210
        • Hard - 68520 increased to 82380
        • Very Hard - 78750 increased to 90360
        • Insane - 90360 increased to 99180
      • Express
        • Normal -  74070 increased to 80970
        • Hard - Still at 88440
        • Very Hard - Still at 96660
        • Insane - Still at 105600
    • Scoring
      • The Endspeed Bonus on Classic is now based on clearing in 45 Minutes instead of 40 Minutes.
      • The Wavespeed Bonus now falls by a flat 3% per second, instead of 3% the first 30 seconds and 2% afterwards.
    • General Balance
      • Single Element
        • Scaling increased from x6.5 / x6.5 / x10 to x7 / x7 / x10
        • Cost increased from 175 / 625 / 2300 / 11000 to 175 / 750 / 3000 / 13000
      • Dual Element
        • Scaling reduced from x6 to x5
        • Cost increased from 450 / 1350 / 3650 to 600 / 1750 / 5000
        • Damage across the board went up roughly 40%
      • Triple Element
        • Tier 2 Cost increased from 4500 to 5000
        • Triple Support Tower damage increased roughly 20-25% across the board.
      • Pures
        • The Gold Bonus when you get a Pure Essence in the Summoner has been removed.
        • Periodic damage increased from 24000 to 30000
    • Specific Balance
      • Single Element
        • Water ability altered. Now causes a single bounce within 350 range, with 100/200 AoE, and dealing 25% damage of the original attack. Damage increased from 22 / 143 / 930 / 9300 to 55 / 385 / 2700 / 27000
        • Fire damage increased from 10 / 65 / 425 / 4250 to 10 / 70 / 490 / 4900
          • Ability damage increased from 3 / 20 / 130 / 1300 to 3 / 21 / 150 / 1500
        • Nature damage increased from 70 / 455 / 2960 / 29600 to 70 / 490 / 3430 / 34300
        • Earth ability altered. Now causes Aftershock. Half a second after the attack lands, a secondary shockwave hits the same location with 200/400 AoE and half damage. Damage altered from 48 / 312 / 2030 / 20300 to 35 / 245 / 1720 / 17200
        • Light damage increased from 100 / 650 / 4225 / 4225 to 110 / 770 / 5400 / 54000
          • Ability damage reduced from 4 / 26 / 170 / 1700 to 3 / 21 / 150 / 1500
        • Dark damage increased from 260 / 1690 / 11000 / 110000 to 270 / 1890 / 13300 / 133000
      • Dual Element
        • Disease ranged increased from 550 to 700. Damage altered from 50 / 300 / 1800 to 70 / 350 / 1750
        • Flame attack & ability damage altered from 40 / 240 / 1440 to 50 / 250 / 1250
        • Vapor initial damage altered from 5 / 30 / 180 to 22 / 110 / 550. Echo damage altered from 20 / 120 / 720 to 22 / 110 / 550
        • Moss ranged reduced from 700 to 550. Damage altered from 120 / 720 / 4320 to 200 / 1000 / 5000
        • Quark damage altered from 160 / 960 / 5760 to 225 / 1125 / 5625
        • Ice damage altered from 135 / 810 / 4860 to 200 / 1000 / 5000
        • Poison damage altered from 200 / 1200 / 7200 to 300 / 1500 / 7500
        • Hydro attack & ability damage altered from 300 / 1800 / 10800 to 420 / 2100 / 10500
        • Electricity damage altered from 150 / 900 / 5400 to 210 / 1050 / 5250
        • Life damage altered from 300 / 1800 / 10800 to 420 / 2100 / 10500. Effect altered from 6 / 4 / 2 to 6 / 5 / 4 kills to proc
        • Gunpowder attack & ability damage altered from 30 / 180 / 1080 to 42 / 210 / 1050
        • Magic BAT altered from 1 to 0.66. Damage altered from 600 / 3600 / 21600 to 650 / 3250 / 16250
        • Blacksmith / Well / Trickery damage altered from 450 / 2700 / 16200 to 800 / 4000 / 20000
      • Triple Element
        • Tidal damage altered. Initial damage increased from 500 / 2500 to 600 / 3000. End damage reduced from 2000 / 10000 to 1800 / 9000
        • Flooding damage per second increased from 150 / 750 to 160 / 800
        • Ephemeral damage increased from 1800 / 9000 to 2000 / 10000
        • Hail range reduced from 1500 to 1150. Damage increased from 800 / 4000 to 1000 / 5000. Spreadshot range is now separate from the tower's range, and is now 1750.
        • Impulse BAT altered from 1 to 1.5. Damage increased from 2250 / 11250 to 4000 / 20000
        • Gold damage increased from 4500 / 22500 to 5000 / 25000. Effect increased from 20% / 30% to 25% / 30%.
        • Flamethrower damage increased from 450 / 2250 to 500 / 2500
        • Haste damage increased from 950 / 4750 to 1000 / 5000
        • Obliteration damage increased from 1100 / 5500 to 1200 / 6000
        • Muck damage increased from 800 / 4000 to 1100 / 5500
        • Nova damage increased from 250 / 1250 to 300 / 1500
        • Erosion damage per second increased from 120 / 600 to 150 / 750
        • Jinx damage increased from 2600 / 13000 to 3500 / 17500
        • Roots damage per second increased from 100 / 500 to 120 / 600
        • Enchantment damage increased from 500 / 2500 to 625 / 3125
        • Polar damage increased from 1600 / 8000 to 2000 / 10000
        • Windstorm AOE increased from 550 to 600. Tornado movespeed increased from 175 to 200. Damage per second increased from 350 / 1750 to 450 / 2250



    Expect the game to feel different than before. Tech Rushing is still doable and very much viable, but a whole lot harder to pull off (in other words, it's not the only way to "properly play" anymore).



    Patch is live!

  17. I'm still not sure the reason why people want to be able to stop their towers' attacks in the first place. Is it, maybe, trying to guarantee last hits on stuff like life towers or something? It just seems... excessive. I suppose we could implement it, I just need a reason to justify it.

  18. I'd personally be up for adding more and new content in the base game itself. Yes, Element TD does have a lot of replayability, but compared to Dota 2, it's a farcry away in "complexity", as the possible combinations and ways to play far outstrip anything Element TD, in its current state, is capable of. However, the base game can only be modded so far, so as long as we got more modes to back it up (and eventually, if we can come up with a good concept, a PvP mode), it should be alright. Still gotta be careful what exactly we add.


    Of the ideas suggested, I'm partial to the mines, cause nothing else in the game does that. It would have to be balanced carefully for sure to prevent it from being OP (or possibly just straight up underpowered), but it's doable. Anyone got moar thoughts and opinions?

  19. Unless you somehow magically take 80+ minutes to clear through Wave 55 on Classic (or 40+ minutes on Express), you can't possibly get a negative multiplier. The bonuses initially add or subtract from 1. Admittedly, we don't have a thread somewhere that explains exactly how all the score bonuses work, and we should, so I'll see if I can get that up within the next day or so.

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