[Public Beta] How Blacksmith and well stacks

[jolin012]

I've started a minor project of how smith&well stacks with different towers, some imbalances can even be so great that they are defined bugs.

For the lazy reader, A Conclution: I have found a way to make blacksmith and well work with all towers except those i think it should not work on. read further for details. It bases on the idea that Spring forward will also increase mana regen. And for blacksmith some more coding is needed so that it works out on such as magic.

Don't have to go Woah! So my Hail will get double boost from well, and electric will not get boosted at all as it's not mana based? That's not the case, i know what I'm talking about, read further for details.

Before I begin the work I'll put up a list of towers that i suspect might be weird, and not straight off 25/50/100% effectiveness increase.

Ice

Flame

Hydro

Mushroom

Zealout

Drowning

Tidal

Quaker

Flesh Golem

Ice

I'll start off with Ice. first some random info: It infuses it's attacks with a Dot that represents 66% of it's damage if every attack by the tower hits a new unit (that is, if you play the tower with micro). If you don't play the tower with micro and place it on a normal 2 pass, it hits every creep about 2-3 times, (and then the Dot Reprecents about 50%-60%)

Now this means that with the current setup about 33%-50% of the tower will be affected by a blacksmith tower. One big question is if this tower shall even be defined as a damage tower (it shall be able to be the target of smith or well) or if it shall be defined a support tower or spellcaster (not able to be the target of spells.

I say it's a damage tower, and worth the fire up even though it does slow. It does have the availability of fire up and spring forward now, but what i whissh them to do is: Fire up shall increase the damage of the normal attack AND the Dot. I'm not sure about well. If it's not used with micro, the effect won't gain any advantage from beeing sprung forward, as it will hit the same target 5 times instead - and not change target 2x as often. If it'd always be like this, it'd be perfect if the spring forward effected dot's speed, so that instead of 400 damage/sec it'd to 400damage/(sec/0.25) so that it during the 4 sec or what it is, has time for 25% more dot.

However, what bothers this idea, is that if the player does use micro, (manual target, or click stop after every attack) this will make double work. If the player uses manual micro and the spring forward just increases the attack speed it will also affect the ability, as it spreads over more units. If we do add that the effect also makes Dot work faster it will make double up for the microing player. Oh in the other hand if every tower shall put the effect on every unit, they must be spread so wide over the map that well won't reach anyway unless the player uses <4 ice towers, and in that case... hmm I guess that's a pretty odd case, the player does almost deserve it if he spreads the tower that well, and combining with a well of tier 1 (or maybe) doesn't really buff that much extra from the Dot. I've recently tested if the Dot damage increases by blacksmith, and it appeared it doesn't.

So here's What I sugguest of Ice:

If it is possible without problems make The Dot of ice affected by blacksmith and well. well will, except increasing the attack speed, reduce the time per damage, so instead of lasts 5 sec, 400dmg every 5 sec it'll do 400dmg every 1/(1+x)sec where x=0,25 or 0,50 or 1,0 depending on lvl of well(or 1/(1,25) or 1,50 or 2,0 if that is easier than 1+0.25). blacksmith will increase damage of the Dot aswell as the damage of the tower itself, so the dot would be 400*1,25 or 400+400*0,25 if that's easier^^.

I guess those sugguestions are not very possible to fix but at least Ideas are worth posting, maybe not worth reading hehe

Flame

Next tower in my list is flame, a neighbour of Ice, and that's just why it appears in this list. First thought: shall the flame tower be affected by well&smith?(aka, is it a damage tower, as I believe only damage towers shall recieve boost) at first i though "yes ofcourse it's like ice it shall get boost." But then "No... it might look alike but infact it'salot more of a support tower, it has only 33-50% of the damage of the ice tower, and the effect of this tower shall not be able to be buffed, as it is a support effect itself. So - I say Flame shall not be able to be buffed by either smith or well. Why did this tower appear in the list at all? Not only because it currently gets affected, but also because some might think this is almost the same as ice - has same slow, same range, same attackspeed - but i say "I'ts not"

Hydro

Hydro appears in the list for one reason. because it can be used as a slow, not any slow, but a very unique slow. (it does stack with max slowed creeps) Isn't as effective as stunning like old gemstone, but still, I thought that maybe With well it could be increased to be used in game, While Blacksmith does not buff this "slow". Anyway, I quickly realized that this will probably not be "abused", is not possible to "fix", as well isn't even worth building for non upgraded hydros, and upgrading hydros is not worth when going for the effect, that doesn't increase. Same might go for Jinx tower, however, a jinx build combined with well might be discovered, as a "gemstone build"

Mushroom

Why I got to think of this a first was because I heard someone saying "well stacks so good with mushroom, uberspeed!" or something. And i went "o_O nah, but maybe the opposite!" I thought a bit, and thought that maybe it was bad designed, so that the buff only adds speed to the normal attackspeed so that the entire formule for attacksmeed goes x+200%+25% instead of x+200%*1,25 or x*2*1,25. This is yet to be tested,(if i don't get an answer from K) if the spore clowded mushroom get's it's speed increased by 33 or 100% form a waterfall.

Zealout

Zealout is familiar with mushroom. Also i have a question about this. it sais it increases speed by +4%, and then +4% again. does that mean 4+4=+8% or 1,04*1,04=+8,16% ? This one might have the same problem as Mushroom, that the further away from the main attack speed it gets, the less effective a speed buff is. There is also another imbalance between smith and well, and this one favors well, as well helps the zealout to quicker reach the cap, the max attack speed. If both these exists... ( i know the 2nd does, and that can't be removed really, if not doing like with flesh golem, increase based on damage dealt - eerr at least i thought it was so )

If both these do exist, I don't think it's actually a major problem, they balance each other out rather well. So I say, Check if the first "problem" exist. if it does exist, the 2 probs take each other out pretty well, so if it isn't very easy to fix them both, skip fixing them both.

Drowning

This one I've been complaining about some before. I don't like that it's both armor and armor type ignoring. I just figred that neither will blacksmith work with the effect, or my sugguestion for a new trickery. But I think i know how to fix drowning tower away from all these problems. The instantkill shall not be based on just a chance and creeps current hp. The towers normal attack deals damage of 3000. and the chance is 3000/current hp. I think you said it was possible to read the current hp before and after the attack - and then quickly add a instantkill based on the info gathered. so instead of 3000/creephpafterattack=chance i sugguest (creephpbeforeattack-creephpafter)/creephpafter=chance.

If it works, it shall solve all problems, it will even care about if the target is affected by faerie fire or sunburn, and if the drowning tower is fired up. Atm it cares about nothing except well, and slowers.

Tidal/Quaker

I checked these. and they appear well planned even though tidal will lvl up faster with well, it actually fixes quaker too, in terms of safety. better 60 times the chance of 3000dmg to all, than 30 times the chance of 6000dmg to all. I'd like Tidal tower to be able to toggle autocast, and it might autocast as it reaches lvl 10. (you are ofcourse able to unselect autocasting, but currently it's the only tower that doesn't have autocast, except trickery, and it whould really be there for the one who wants the tower without having time to micro. Great work with these, which ones the strongest (counting that quaker actually hits 20% of the times a round) It depends on where placed, good/bad micro, and it'll still be a tight fight of which one's the best

Flesh Golem

Some things just don't work out all the time such as mr fleshie showing up in a random, maybe even at tier 1 after lvl 30. Anyway, This one works well with well. and as far as i understand of the message "it increases every time damage is dealt" it shall gain more mana if it deals more damage maybe? That means Blacksmith also makes it lvl up faster?

That's it for now, please leave some feedback about the different points a brought up here, and I'll be glad

[jolin012]

Let me add that atm there are a lot of spellcasting towers. Those towers Are not able to combine with smith&well. Example is electricity, magic and oblivion. I don't like them. They screw up build balance, and 2-element towers actually have to get better (it's mostly tier 3 that has to get better, and that's by the time some heavy supporters are raised.)

If it's possible I'd like to see Kindle, Magic, Decease, Poison, Electricity, Quark, aswell as

[Cisz]

After some experiments I am 99.9% positive that blacksmith increases the splash of hydro. So hydro can be uses as an earth dmg tower in a slowing build, like a muck/storm build, especially if nature is not available (so quaker is missing).

About zealot, it's 104%, 108%, 112%... and well does not have the full effect on this tower, as the maximum speed is the same with or withour speed boost, while blacksmith gives the full gain.

Have you checked if blacksmith increases the splash dmg for quaker and tidal? Or the dmg of laser and impulse? I havn't tested those yet.

And flesh golems experience gain is based on the dmg it deals, so it gains xp faster as it grows, and blacksmith should speed up that process.

[jolin012]

Hm, you're right in naming Impulse and those, we should actually include to one list all towers and test if they do what they shall do correctly.

Towers that do stack with smith&well atm... but maybe something's going wrong?:

Gunpowder - what could be wrong with this? it doesn't even have any effect.

Quark - I'm not sure is blacksmith works with the effect - to be tested. Well does not really work out with the effect. maybe make it, like tidal, charge up it's effect with attacks, or if it's possible, make this mana based tower so that it will increase mana regen by well. Spring forward to be increasing mana regen could actually solve a lot of problems with those "spellcasters" that can't get buffed, that imo should be. Those will be stated in a list later.

Mushroom - there might be something wrong with this one. To test: does the sporeclouded mushroom increase attackspeed by 33% or 100% if it is buffed by well tier 3?

Hydro - This tower get's buffed by blacksmith to increase total damage by x%. by Well it increases not only total dps by x%, but also the slow effect it has. Maybe there isn't a way to fix this, and it ain't a big problem.

Flame - This is a support tower and shall Imo bot get boosted by smith or well. however, it does.

Ice - Should work with smith&well, does work but doesn't stack perfectly, read first post.

Triples:

Flamethrower - imo napalm should get boost both from smith and well... but how would that be possible with well...

Laser - This should work with well - but will it's bonus damage from short range get increased by smith, or just the main damage? To be tested

Muck - Does get boosted, should get boosted imo. Even though this is a support tower I think needs the possibility to get boosted, as it might even need 2 of it to make sure it slows all, I'll explain why it's worth to be boosted in case of need. Maybe someone thinks well effects the slow ability while blacksmith doesn't, but as long as this tower is not microed very much it will keep on attacking the same unit until it's out of sight anyway. This is and should be able to get boosted by both smith and well properly.

Jinx - I don't like this tower so it probably has problems. hehe, just kidding, but seriously, it has the same problem as hydro, that the slowing part of it's efffect is effected by well but not smith. The damage part however, that is the most important, should get effected effected by both. it does get effected by well for sure, the more attacks the bigger chance of a successful teleport. I'm not sure if the effect is effected by blacksmith, I don't think so, but I think it should do, and hope it's possible. Warning, this tower does not work well with slowing towers

Voodoo - This tower does get affected by smith&well... It's not a very strong damage towers but maybe the damage of the support towers is actually worth to make stack with well&smith... In 5 ele builds the defense is about 66% support towers... would it be a good thing if support towers were changed to stack with well&smith? I think I'd say no. because 5ele builds and 6ele build especially shall not be encouraged to play.

Hail - This one does actually appear to work out very well. If the spring forward=mana regen idea works out, this one would just have to switch back to the classic cooldown idea.

Drowning - Everything about this can be read in the first post.

Gold - This one works out without problems.

Quaker - This one works out with well. According to karawasa, does stack with blacksmith, but still not tested.

Zealout - This one has problems with well. Well makes the tower reach max attackspeed faster, but it doesn't increase the cap. So, it works better than blacksmith if it does only have time for ~<60 attacks until it resets, but where it has time to reach the cap , such as placing infront of the entrance on ve extreme, well doesn't work at all. Also it might be the same as with mushroom, that when it has not reached cap it still doesn't do the 100% increase (if it's tier 3) but instead 100% increase from the original attack speed. This tower has to be fixed and tested. more to be read in first post.

Enchantment - This one should imo not get boost. it is not a damage tower, and has about the same dps as well tier 2.

Polar - Same as Voodoo

Flesh Golem - This one gains the same boost from well as blacksmith. the boost is 25%/50%/100%. Hmm... maybe the blacksmith boost doesn't stack with level up boost? that it adds 25%, where 25% is 25% of 4000 and not 4000+x400 x=lvl. Tested, bad news: Blacksmith tier 1 on flesh golem tier 1 always gives 1000dmg boost, nomatter the level of the fleshie:( has to be fixed in some way.

Impulse - Same as Laser, probably only needed to test one of them, but testing is the way to find bugs, so maybe test both anyway^^

Tidal - Well makes the ability ready faster. Blacksmith should make ability deal more damage - to be tested.

Those are the towers that currently does get boosted. Here comes the towers that currently doesn't get boosted.

Magic - Imo all damage towers should get boost, even spell casters, so. Well would work with this tower if spring forward is changed to increase mana regen. Blacksmith would need to increase damage of the bonus damage from ability too. I don't know if that's a possible thing.

Decease - Should get boost. Well will work with the sugguested idea, it will be a bit unique cause there would be double flies out for some seconds if combined with waterfall:P. Blacksmith would have to increase the damage of Flies. again, is the possible?

Poison - Should get boosted. Well will work with the sugguested idea, if poison switches to a mana based attack. (Maybe offtopic but Imo Poison should not do it's effect so rapidly, but instead more dmg, maybe dmg 500 instead of 300 and time per attack multipied by 5/3.) Blacksmith should incerase the damage of the poison. Is this possible?

Blacksmith - does not get boosted. should not get boosted. Peace.

Electricity - Should get boosted. Well would work with the sugguested idea if switched to manabased. Blacksmith would increase the damage of every attack, preferably the final damage if that's possible, means the 10% increase from jump will also be effected by blacksmith. This might be to hard? Maybe another idea is a to make it a normal attack basing on glaive bounce but with changed attack modal and things, if that's easier.

Kindle - Should get boosted. Well would work with the sugguested idea if switched to manabased. It'd mean the tower has, maybe 10 mana that regenerates at x (1+y) speed, where x is original speed 10 mana/sec and y is the level of spring forward, so without springforward x(1)=x and with spring forward tier 1 x(1+0.25). Maybe there is an easier way to do this, i don't know with the coding what is easiest. if boosted by blacksmith the damage every time it toasts will be increased by 25%/50%/100%.

Another idea i just got of how this can be done is to have a 1-1 attack that deals no damage, and has no modle tor attacking, but every attack it does gives a 100% chance to deal 150 damage to units within a 750 area, just like quaker but 100%(that's not how the tooltips gonna be, just trying to prove this should be possible to do just like the quaker.) (in other words, a dot that can follow speed and damage boosts of the normal attack.)

Well - Doesn't and shouldn't get boosted

Triples:

Roots - It's tricky really with those support towers to decide which one is a support tower and which one is a damage, as many of them are both. This can even be a stronger damage dealer than Muck so I'm completley unsure, aswell as i often use even corrosion storm nova and roots for damage. sometimes even voodoo. These are hard to do decide and maybe I should get a total answer that it would be 100% impossible to change them anyway before i start with this.

Corrosion - same as roots.

Oblivion - Dragon house has changed to skeletons lair (i don't like that) and still doesn't work with smith&well. Well and smith should absolutley work with this tower, but they don't. Damage and attackspeed shall be on the minions, possible ot make it come true?

Nova - same as Roots

Windstorm - same as Roots

Hmm... and that's about it. Before we know how to move on we might need soe feedback from K.

[dvdlesher]

Sometimes, I wonder. Does roots, windstorm, corrosion got damage/attack speed buff at all?

Because, those towers real damage is 1, but the spell does the damage

[jolin012]

no, as mentioned (and I know it's too much to read) they do not, and are not meant to be able to buff.

if you cast for example Fire up (the buff the blacksmith deals out) on a mushroom tower, and then upgrades the mushroom tower into a roots tower, the roots tower has the spell, else it's not possible to target or for it to autocast on such towers. If you obtain the effect through upgrades, it will do nothing to your tower, basicly making it deal 2-2 instead of 1-1 which is just an attack to cause the spell to attack on the place and time you select the root tower to attack.

Short answer: No, they can not get the speed/attack buff at all, and if they would be targetable, they would no gain advantage out of it.

Edit: I just noticed I never mentioned it in this thread so I take back my first sentance.

[dvdlesher]

Glad you cleared that up, jolin12

[Kaini]

A Conclution: I have found a way to make blacksmith and well work with all towers except those i think it should not work on.

Disagree - the supporders shoult work with every tower.

Hydro appears in the list for one reason. because it can be used as a slow, not any slow, but a very unique slow.

As far as I know Hydro won't stack the creeps anymore in next beta.

so instead of 3000/creephpafterattack=chance i sugguest (creephpbeforeattack-creephpafter)/creephpafter=chance.

Let's say an enemy has got 10.000 HP (thats about level 33). A small calculation between old an new tower. (3000 Damage, Chance to kill 3000/....)

        OLD      NEW (Neutal) NEW (50%) NEW (200%) NEW (75%)

10000   42,86%   42,86%       17,65%    150,00%    29,03%

9000    50,00%   50,00%       20,00%    200,00%    33,33%

8000    60,00%   60,00%       23,08%    300,00%    39,13%

7000    75,00%   75,00%       27,27%    600,00%    47,37%

6000    100,00%  100,00%      33,33%    #DIV/0!    60,00%

5000    150,00%  150,00%      42,86%    -600,00%   81,82%

4000    300,00%  300,00%      60,00%    -300,00%   128,57%

3000    #DIV/0!  #DIV/0!      100,00%   -200,00%   300,00%

2000    -300,00% -300,00%     300,00%   -150,00%   -900,00%

1000    -150,00% -150,00%     -300,00%  -120,00%   -180,00%

For "normal" elements the tower is as effective as the old - for the good element it a bit overpowerd - for the bad element it is very weak but thats ok. Conclusion: Super idea, but it is very extreme (VERY good in 200% but very very bad in 50%).

I really like most of you suggestions but as you said, it will be very difficult to implement.