Game Difficulty

[Karawasa]

There was a "wish," brought up in the wish thread about the difficulty of the game. There are a few facets to discuss here.

First:

It was suggested that the same number of creeps should spawn (i.e. always 30) regardless of difficulty. This makes the lower levels more noob friendly, and allows them to explore different tower options because of increased cash.

Second:

I would like to know if you guys think the game is too easy overall. It was mentioned that Very Hard becomes the standard mode once you learn the game, and as mentioned, Normal should take that role. If this is indeed true, then I propose a global creep HP boost, to increase the difficulty of the game.

Here is the current hp:

• 75

87

102

119

139

162

189

221

257

300

350

409

477

556

649

757

883

1,030

1,201

1,401

1,635

1,907

2,225

2,596

3,028

3,533

4,121

4,808

5,609

6,543

7,633

8,905

10,389

12,120

14,139

16,494

19,242

22,448

26,188

30,550

35,640

41,578

48,505

56,586

66,013

77,011

89,840

104,808

122,269

142,639

166,403

194,125

226,466

264,196

308,211

359,559

419,461

489,343

570,868

665,975

As you can see, every level is 1.1666x the previous level. The absolute hardest growth possible is 1.746x (without changing level 1 at 75 hp). This produces:

• 75

88

103

122

143

168

197

231

272

319

375

440

517

608

714

838

985

1,157

1,359

1,596

1,874

2,202

2,586

3,038

3,568

4,191

4,923

5,782

6,792

7,978

9,370

11,007

12,928

15,186

17,837

20,951

24,609

28,906

33,953

39,881

46,845

55,024

64,631

75,916

89,170

104,740

123,027

144,508

169,739

199,375

234,186

275,075

323,103

379,517

445,781

523,614

615,037

722,422

848,557

996,715

Third:

This is being discussed in another thread, but I would like to address it here too because it is important and relates to difficulty. The time in between rounds. It is currently:

• 18

15

12

9

6

To prevent VE spamming and make the game slightly less hectic on VH, I propose this:

• 25

21

17

13

9

Thoughts?

[holepercent]

the first point means that all difficulty will have 30 creeps but different starting hp and giving the same gold per creep kill? many players have the impression that ve is easier but it's not necessarily so because of less gold. most other tds difficulty play with the hp/armour types..

the second point. it relates more to imbalanced builds (lwfd for instance) rather than the hp. the 'game-winning towers' ie storm,acid, etc... increase in creep hp would have to be balanced with the towers. it should not force players to build certain towers to handle the waves. this seems so with the last few waves. that how many builds would be able to deal that amount of damage (900k) ? maybe as posted in the other thread that we just have 4 difficulties. easy,normal,hard,extreme or something like that. this also links back to the first point about number of creeps spawned.

ok for the last point. although that the problem hasn't really been clearly defined and determined whether is it really a problem. but i do suppose it would help counter some racing in mixed diff games.

[MagicalHacker]

There was a "wish," brought up in the wish thread about the difficulty of the game. There are a few facets to discuss here.

First:

It was suggested that the same number of creeps should spawn (i.e. always 30) regardless of difficulty. This makes the lower levels more noob friendly, and allows them to explore different tower options because of increased cash.

Agreed.

Second:

I would like to know if you guys think the game is too easy overall. It was mentioned that Very Hard becomes the standard mode once you learn the game, and as mentioned, Normal should take that role. If this is indeed true, then I propose a global creep HP boost, to increase the difficulty of the game.

*snip*

I think that skilled players will always choose the hardest level they can still win, no matter how you name the difficulties. The only net effect of the relabeling will be to increase the level casual players will play on; they will still choose 'normal', although this mode will be quite hard already.

The other question is: should the overall difficulty rise, independent of the naming? No opinion here; this is a practical-balance question, and i decided to stay far away from these matters

Third:

This is being discussed in another thread, but I would like to address it here too because it is important and relates to difficulty. The time in between rounds. It is currently:

• 18

15

12

9

6

To prevent VE spamming and make the game slightly less hectic on VH, I propose this:

• 25

21

17

13

9

Thoughts?

I think VE spamming is just something you accept when playing vote mode. Don't like it? Don't play vote.

[Guest Warcryptic]

Same creeps no, there are still noobs that die because of when you place the towers in the most left of place 4 (see numpad for those who dont know)

the creeps dont die, not all. few leak, even these little things can be annoying to ve. About the hp, thats 1 idea to make it harder, this 1 should work, but beta test this, a beta map with only vh on this hp, see if its even possible to make it that way, it should be hard not impossible.

About time, never had probs with it, not even with multi mode games. And even think, more waiting time, more interest sucking, keep it as it is.

[Guest hyperprimate]

I think that skilled players will always choose the hardest level they can still win

Then why don't we play extreme all the time?

I think VE spamming is just something you accept when playing vote mode. Don't like it? Don't play vote.

Totally agree. Besides, if you play at different difficulites it should still be possible for the VE player to put pressure on the other players. You don't hear golfers with a lower handicap whining about losing to less skilled players, do you?

Same creeps no, there are still noobs that die [...]

Noobs will always find ways to die. More importantly, less creeps makes the game harder and not as fun, since you have less money.

[Twilice]

Whats the maximum hp now again?

I had to redo the hp on the creeps in my TD many times.

But i think the first level should be a little less hp and the muliplier become greater.

In very hard extreme are often the first 1-7 levels hard then easyer and then it gets harder again.

[echinodermata]

The HP numbers are so high in later levels that you can't view them! Perhaps you could scale it down a bit?

[Guest Warcryptic]

why is that so neccesary, the hp gauge shows it anyway, not the number but how many left.

[Twilice]

Hm but it would be funny to se how much hp the creps have.

I don't know anything about fixing the hp bar bug.

[0rb3r]

Then why don't we play extreme all the time?

I think VE spamming is just something you accept when playing vote mode. Don't like it? Don't play vote.

Noobs will always find ways to die.

I totally agree to all above said. Players don't play extreme because it is not funny to sweat like hot dog in the microwave untill you finally die painfully in round 39 against a lynch-mob of worms (if you make it that far...). I think that raising the difficulty will make players to choose the hardest acceptable difficulty. If you feel that you have no chance to survive, you just dont play that difficulty. So, difficulties need to be progresive, with medium to small difference between diflvl and diflvl.

VE spamming is unavoidable, and it is funny, harder difficulties just need more time to start dominating. BUT, If all difficulties get same creeps, and, so, same bounty, IT WILL BE HELL.

Actually I dislike the idea to have all dificulties with the same amount of creeps.

[Karawasa]

There are some good reasons to not make it so that all difficulties spawn 30 creeps, mainly, with extra cash VE players can spam other players even more. However, if you think otherwise, please do share.

I suppose we will have to try out the new towers before deciding for certain whether the game difficulty needs a hike globally. As stated, the factor is 1.1666, I think that 1.17 would be a nice balance. The difficulty is probably a little lower than optimal, so a slight increase might be in order. Remember, the increase in factor becomes more and more significant as you get closer to the end of the game.

As for the timings, looking back it seems what I proposed was too high. Perhaps 21/18/15/12/9? Is 6 seconds (currently) enough time for VH players?

[Twilice]

seems fairly good.

[0rb3r]

If the max hp is so important for you guys, why dont you include the maxhp for the current level in the multiboard? I mean, you can aproximately know the life% from each creep pressing Alt, and knowing life % and max hp gives you a good idea about the real life of your mobs.

About the level end time delay, there is imo no other way to find good values then testing, testing and testing.

[0rb3r]

Isn't there a way to reduce the costs of towers for... let me guess... maybe -10% for easy and -30% for very easy difficulties?

The way it is now the easy difficulties are not as easy as I hoped. If necessary we may readjust the wave to wave delay to avoid spamming.

[Karawasa]

The much easier solution is to have all difficulties spawn 30 creeps. That way, the easier difficulties are not short on cash. We can then adjust the wave to wave delay to avoid spamming.

[0rb3r]

I was one of the bad guys that voted against it, i'm still a bit sceptic about this point. The problem is that VE players can be very fast or very slow, if we adjust it so that very fast VE players cant spam, a slow playing VE player that is still 1 sec faster then all other players, will madly increase the game length.

Just imagine yourself as a pro VH player waiting nearly 30 secs after each wave, you wouldnt know were to go with all the cash.

Maybe I see demons where just are shadows, let's have it a shot and see how it works.

[Guest FusionSlayer]

i 110% agree with same amount of creeps all the way through and difficulty based on hp and/or armour.

[Guest Sancdar]

I 150% don't agree. It's already easy on VE to rush if you know even remotely what you're doing, and having twice as much gold early on is going to make that even more exploitable. On the other hand, current VE gets super difficult by the end of the game, because you have no cash (and in the betas, things are more expensive). That's why I think increased starting interest will help balance that out. Even if players don't actively exploit interest, they'll still see some benefits from it.

Of course, the healing issue is probably the most important thing for lower levels at this point.

[Karawasa]

When you say easy to rush if "you even remotely know what you're doing," do you mean know how to play the game, or know how to rush? If someone good picks VE to cheese, that is an extraordinary circumstance. I don't balance for extraordinary circumstances at the cost of normal ones.

Either way, more gold will be offset by the fact that they have more creeps to kill. Overall it will be easier, but it won't be like them having twice as much gold as they do now. That, and you said yourself the betas make everything harder.

I'm leaning toward implementing this change, along with the 70 gold for all players. This is because VE is supposed to be just that, very fucking easy. Being strapped for cash does not go along with this. However, don't let that stop you from disagreeing and posting your point of view.

[0rb3r]

Sancdar, i'm sorry but you're imho wrong, no offense.

Increased interest is not such a good option, those ones who profit the most from interest are pro's, increasing interest means therefor that VE is more exploitable by good microers, so we will have to adjust the round to round delay anyway.

If we have to take the risk to rework and probably increase the round to round delay to avoid spamming, i consider much more suitable to have all players get the same creeps than to write noobs 20 times in big bold letters that there is a bonus for unspent money.

As well, if VE has 5% interest, who stops a pro from getting millionaire by wave 40 and build the whole area full of towers (remember that it will be the pro on VE the first finishing and will make all other players wait for 30 secs to next round, pharming all the way). The necessary delay to compensate the change is bigger going for the b option (interest) than for the a option (increase spawning number), and on top it is harder to balance (like i.ex. making senseless getting a interest pick).

I would only try to adjust interest if by any reason it does not work to readjust the spawning number.

[Guest Sancdar]

When you say easy to rush if "you even remotely know what you're doing," do you mean know how to play the game, or know how to rush? If someone good picks VE to cheese, that is an extraordinary circumstance. I don't balance for extraordinary circumstances at the cost of normal ones.

Probably about half the games I join, the host is on VE or forces VE.

Either way, more gold will be offset by the fact that they have more creeps to kill. Overall it will be easier, but it won't be like them having twice as much gold as they do now. That, and you said yourself the betas make everything harder.

With weak creeps, it's usually pretty easy to hold them at one spot, so more of them doesn't make it harder.

Increased interest is not such a good option, those ones who profit the most from interest are pro's, increasing interest means therefor that VE is more exploitable by good microers

It's true that pros would benefit more from increased interest, but not as much as they would from just straight up doubling their money. Interest takes time to go into effect, money's always working for you. Doubling the money has the same net effect on early interest gain - 2% of 200% is the same as 4% of 100%, but makes interest picks more useful because 2.5% of 200% is more than 4.5% of 100%. On the other hand, higher interest wouldn't impact the early game, which is already easy on VE, but only make a significant difference in the late-game, where VE players suffer. The other upside is that a higher interest rate would probably lead to pros building further back to benefit from the cashflow rather than rushing, which would again solve the problem.

I don't think adjusting delay upwards is a good idea - more delay means a more boring game. That's why I've suggested in the past making delay based on the range of difficulty levels present, for one thing. Higher interest means less delay is needed compared to higher money - waves still end at the same time on VE and on VH right now, which is good. Adding creeps to the beginning wouldn't push that back any in the early game, especially with more money to work with. Higher interest would take effect more slowly, especially with a lower delay, so there shouldn't be any rushing of VH players by VE pros or VE players by VH pros (which does happen to new players).

[Karawasa]

Probably about half the games I join, the host is on VE or forces VE.

That's why I've suggested in the past making delay based on the range of difficulty levels present, for one thing.

And the host is what skill level usually? Newbies tend to die before late-game, so the interest boost won't really see light for them. They need the extra cash early game so that they can accumulate $$$ and survive.

I could accomplish this by simply making the time after round ends a function of the average difficulty. The following is how the current time between rounds works:

Set Start_Timer_Modifier = (25.00 - ((Real(Difficulty[(Dying_Creep_Player - 1)])) x 4.00))

VE=21, VH=5

From this you can infer that VE=1 and VH=5 in terms of value for the formula. Imagine now we had a game of half VE, and half VH. We would get an in-between round time of 13 seconds, regardless of who finished.

[0rb3r]

I think I got a better idea instead of using average difficulty for in-between-round delay.

How about "minor delay apliable"?

I explain myself:

If a VE player in a major group finishes cleaning his area on a certain wave, the counter starts, 21 secs delay to next wave.

3 seconds later (trigger timer is at 18 secs left), a VH player clears his area. If he would be first, a 5 second delay would start.

The delays are compared, and if the remaining time of the old timer (18 secs in our case) is bigger than the new one (generated by our VH player, which has right now a remaining time of 5 secs), the timer will be set to the lowest possible (in this case it's the new one with 5 secs remaining).

(Not sure if VE=21 secs and VH=5 secs, correct me if i'm wrong)

No VE spamming, no boring waiting for VH players. It's the ultimative solution for the between-wave-delay issue. I hope you understand what im proposing, if not, let me know and i'll try to explain it better.

Thoughts?

[Guest FusionSlayer]

correct me if im wrong but if there is no race i thought it waited for the last person, or is this why race was removed, because of the new timing?

[Guest 1mpulse]

nope, timer starts as soon as someone finishes the round first =)