Super Weapons

[Megadramon]

Cost = 500/1500/3000/5000 Minerals

No stacking of disables/buffs/debuffs

• Sleep builder for 1/3/5/7 seconds, 60 second CD
• Slow builder by 1/2/3/4 movespeed for 30 seconds, 45 second CD
• Slow tower attack speed by 15/30/60/120 percent for 15 seconds, 45 second CD
• Disable tower for 2/4/6/8 seconds, 45 second CD
• Passive increase interest rate by 0.25/0.5/0.75/1.0 percent
• Passive tower regeneration aura of 2/4/6/8 HP per second
• Passive builder movespeed increase of 1.5/3/4.5/6
• AoE tower damage of 50/100/200/400, 90 second CD
• DoT tower damage of 125/250/500/1000 over 15 seconds, 90 second CD
• Instant tower damage of 100/200/400/800, 90 second CD
• Instant tower heal of 150/300/600/1200 HP, 90 second CD
• AoE tower heal of 75/150/300/600 HP, 90 second CD
• Steal 2/4/6/8 percent of current minerals from player, 60 second CD
• Hide players UI for 1/3/5/7 seconds, 90 second CD
• AoE creep heal of 10/20/30/40 percent, 90 second CD
• Instant 5 chain creep heal of 15/60/240/960 HP, 15 second CD
• 7 chain creep debuff immunity for 3/6/10/15 seconds, 30 second CD
• Add (self)-Subtract (other) 100-200/200-400/400-800/800-1600 HP for 15 seconds, 45 second CD

Discuss!

Wait, so your idea is to have towers have HP and you can damage/heal/kill them?

How much HP would towers normally have?

Couldn't you just resell damaged towers and remake them, or is the resell value now based on the % of HP a tower has?

Also couldn't players just team up against someone, essentially giving them hell? If people do that, it can be pretty unfair and can ruin the experience for some players.

[maverck]

Cost = 500/1500/3000/5000 Minerals

No stacking of disables/buffs/debuffs

• Sleep builder for 1/3/5/7 seconds, 60 second CD
• Slow builder by 1/2/3/4 movespeed for 30 seconds, 45 second CD
• Slow tower attack speed by 15/30/60/120 percent for 15 seconds, 45 second CD
• Disable tower for 2/4/6/8 seconds, 45 second CD
• Passive increase interest rate by 0.25/0.5/0.75/1.0 percent
• Passive tower regeneration aura of 2/4/6/8 HP per second
• Passive builder movespeed increase of 1.5/3/4.5/6
• AoE tower damage of 50/100/200/400, 90 second CD
• DoT tower damage of 125/250/500/1000 over 15 seconds, 90 second CD
• Instant tower damage of 100/200/400/800, 90 second CD
• Instant tower heal of 150/300/600/1200 HP, 90 second CD
• AoE tower heal of 75/150/300/600 HP, 90 second CD
• Steal 2/4/6/8 percent of current minerals from player, 60 second CD
• Hide players UI for 1/3/5/7 seconds, 90 second CD
• AoE creep heal of 10/20/30/40 percent, 90 second CD
• Instant 5 chain creep heal of 15/60/240/960 HP, 15 second CD
• 7 chain creep debuff immunity for 3/6/10/15 seconds, 30 second CD
• Add (self)-Subtract (other) 100-200/200-400/400-800/800-1600 HP for 15 seconds, 45 second CD

Discuss!

Wait, so your idea is to have towers have HP and you can damage/heal/kill them?

How much HP would towers normally have?

Couldn't you just resell damaged towers and remake them, or is the resell value now based on the % of HP a tower has?

Also couldn't players just team up against someone, essentially giving them hell? If people do that, it can be pretty unfair and can ruin the experience for some players.

damage is based off tower health in current build i think. towers have quite alot of hp, it would take many spells to destroy most towers

and yea refund is based off tower hp

the teaming up thing is something to consider

maybe a player will have a "resistance", diminishing returns type thing where if everyone stacks their abilities on one player the spells become significantly weakened (dunno how the hell i'd implement this but it's an idea.)

[Cheng]

Hi Kurasawa and Co.

Thanks for your reminder for Ele TD.

Me and my friend, have still been playing ELE td on warcraft 3 all the time recently. playing Very Hard, Chaos, All random, all the time. hoping to get nice elements and survive the 50 waves haha.

If you guys still continue for warcraft (and not only Starcraft). Then I would be very glad to give some things I discover or want a small change for.

mainly about playing on very hard, ele td newest english version for warcraft 3 (forgot the precise version..)

1. Radius tower: We really dislike this tower. Even building it in the middle or even on the right lane. It still does not enough damage. It feels it's so weak.

Even with a upgraded version of this feels like very weak compared to other triple upgrades. Hopefully Radius can be a better tower in the future.

2. Poison tower; it helps but seems not to see their damage so well. maybe my eyes >.>..

3. lastly, something about he pure element level 2, and 3. It feels like they are very weak agains very hard.even with spam of these does not help for me to kill the very hard waves >.<.

Just some two cents.

Cheers guys and keep up the good work. Ele TD cheers!

Cheng

[Chiquihuite]

Also couldn't players just team up against someone, essentially giving them hell? If people do that, it can be pretty unfair and can ruin the experience for some players.

This is one of my biggest concerns. I feel this system would introduce a tremendous amount of "anti-fun" to the game, as well as substantial additional complexity, in exchange for gameplay that I suspect will only feel meaningful to the most hardcore players. Dealing minor damage to your opponents once every 60-90 seconds at the cost of making your own towers better strikes me as a very intangible form of satisfaction.

Sure, once it's down to you and another guy competing for the win, it might make sense (Except that heals are more powerful than damage, so you'll never be able to outdamage their heals 1 on 1). Until that point, it'll feel like a clusterfuck.

At the same time, when someone does something to screw you over, you'll suffer the full amount of dissatisfaction whether you have 1 opponent or 7.

I don't think we're lacking for complexity, just variation in gameflow. We could totally accomplish that by introducing "items" into the mix without turning it into some crazy free-for-all of OMFGWTFBBQ.

Just off the top of my head, I'd propose making it so every player is given a specific "target" to focus on. If your target is wiped out, you inherit his target. Knowing that you have someone specific gunning for you will make it more practical to get whatever defends against the spells they have, but at the same time you'll have a target to overcome. Suppose you even get a reward for your "target" suffering, like gaining lives when they leak. Maybe there'd even be a periodic reversal of targets so you have a chance to get back at your tormenter?

Second, I think it'd be beneficial to make a clear distinction between "attack" and "defense" time - perhaps only allowing use of spells when all your creeps have been cleared? That'd create an interesting rhythm where you'd get to be aggressive on waves that favor your elements, and more defensive when your elements are not favored.

Just some thoughts. I'd really like to see more people posting their opinion

[Twilice]

Remember this is an extra mode, right?

Now the way I was thinking with super weapons was more weapon like. Btw have anyone of you played enfos hero defence? I was kind of thinking of the spells in that way. You can summon disabling elements mostly stun but also crippling. Then you can summon creeps that will attack your enemies, they will have to chose to either fire at the walking creeps to not leak or focus at the attacking creeps to prevent the towers from getting destroyed. There are also a few minor helpful spells like "despell" to remove enemy debuffs and/or also damage enemy summons. Or a damage bonus aura or something similar.

I am not really a fan of buying your spells instead of towers. Destroyed towers should refund at least 75%. Using the spells should be a strategy that runs "besides" you in super weapons instead of choosing to get items or towers. Losing a tower should not be the end of your game, only increase the odds that you leak and the faster you rebuild the more "rewarded" you are.

Creeps are stronger depending on which level it is, stuns are constant throughout the game. When using the "weapons" your really want them cosmetically to be there, and the impact should be big. But it should not be the end for you if you are fast. There should always be a counter to everything or at least some preparation. Nothing should be instant, but there could be like lets say a force sell for 100% and it will be acknowledged to you so you can prepare for the tower to be sold. For example those attacking creeps, you could use offensive (well defensive) spells towards them to slow them down so you can focus on those last runaways. Or similar to force sell you can sleep towers for a long time, a counter is to rebuild the towers totally for example. I don't know if it explains good enough to show the heading I want with this.

If you are able to steal money, what is the purpose of saving it instead of building more towers. A steal gimmick could be good, but it needs to be reworked then since it really takes away the reason to farm interest or saving money to be able to rebuild.

[Karawasa]

Remember this is an extra mode, right?

Just a mode means people faceroll right past it when choosing options. There will be a mode, but to disable it. So let's get this one right .

[Twilice]

Then I certainly doesn't like the fact to buy stuff with your minerals.

[maverck]

could use a custom resource.

but then it's not really a choice between powers and towers. you just get both.

[Vyce663]

Ya know. Maverck's post gave me a slight idea. If a custom resource is used you can have a system where you may only purchase only certain weapons that cost varying amounts of said resource that you get (say every time you would get a gas you get one of this also) you can choose to spend it on something weaker like a... heal on a enemy mob, or saving it and getting somthing possibly devastating like sleeping your enemy's worker. Adds more depth to the system if ya ask me.

[Twilice]

Yeah, I am not really a fan of making the "standard" Element TD to use the weapons as a choice for either Towers or Weapons. They should be an extra option that everyone can use, not a replacement of towers.

[Chiquihuite]

I think the best way to get our feet wet on this might be to start with a strictly "PvE" introduction of these items/weapons. We can evaluate how much people enjoy using them against creeps first, and if it's a success then we can revisit the PvP aspect down the road.

Thoughts?

[Megadramon]

A private beta version to test it out in a PvE?

I like the idea of trying it out first with a PvE concept to see how the mode would fair.

[Brule]

if you gonna make a super weapon mode, this need be team based(with a option for FFA), or they can just focus a player, and no one can beat 7x1.

make sure you make this 4x4, and that you can use defensive powers on any of yours ally, so if anyone get focused, the team can save than.

and belive me, team oriented games are more atractive.

my ideas:

1- Summon a Boss, the boss will have 2x HP than the creeps on the current wave, and will have the same element, it will not gain the skill of the creeps tho, and will have auras to help the creeps around him.

speed aura - incress move speed of all creeps around him move 20% faster

armor aura - incress the armor of all creps around him in 20%

Slow aura - make towers around him atk 20% slower than normal

Tank Boss - this boss has 5x HP instead the normal 2x HP than normal creeps, but no aura.

Weakness aura - decress damage of all towers around him by 20%.

regen aura - creeps around this boss will regen 2% of the MAX hp per second.

Shield Boss - in a small area around him make a shied that blocks all damage on the creeps, except on him.

2- Tower Element change - change the element of a enemy or friend tower to a chosen element, for 3-6-9-12 seconds(ofensive AND defensive spell)

3- Element swap - change the next wave element for all enemies players to a random one (funny and risk spell)

4- Slow - Make enemie builder move and build 50% slower than normal for 5-10-15-20 seconds.

5- time freeze - All towers, creeps, builders, will stop moving for 3-6-9-12 seconds (give the player time to quee actions in a narrow situation, like focusing bosses, or building mass towers)

[Karawasa]

I think the best way to get our feet wet on this might be to start with a strictly "PvE" introduction of these items/weapons. We can evaluate how much people enjoy using them against creeps first, and if it's a success then we can revisit the PvP aspect down the road.

Making this PvE would counteract the reason for this change. PvE content can only last so long. It simply kicks the bucket down the road. Eventually (and sooner than we'd want), the PvE weapons will begin to bore people.

Now, I'm fine with making it an "attack next player only" type of thing. This will be intuitive and a helpful message will come up if you attack the wrong person (along with spell fizzle). The benefit of this is avoidance of 7v1 and also avoiding an artificial construct such as "only 4 spells targeted at a person per 60 seconds" type of thing.

The goal would be much more direct, you are trying to kill the person next to you and defend yourself from the person behind you.

[Chiquihuite]

I appreciate the ultimate intent of what you're going for, but I think there's a lot to be said for slow iteration. We've got a very diverse community here that offers excellent feedback - I think we'd benefit from a smaller-scale implementation and the feedback that results from it before going even deeper into uncharted territory. We've got enough smart people here that we don't need to gamble on the success of our game.

EDIT: By the way, we're almost back on page 1 again in North America

[Karawasa]

Was discussing with Chiq a way to pace the game with PvP. Builder would have mana, say 15 max. Spells would cost 1-6 mana (they still have cooldown). Builder would get 1 mana every 5 seconds. Builder would also get +10 mana upon clearing of wave.

[Chiquihuite]

Alrighty, so, talked to Karawasa about this a bit more.

Allegedly EleTD was always supposed to be about PvP and "all y'all're a buncha slackers". But on a more serious note, I'm sold on the argument for going in that direction so long as we can do it without compromising the gameplay that makes EleTD fun.

And speaking of gameplay, we really need to axe stuff like "sleep for 4 seconds" in favor of stuff that actually creates a scenario where both players have a hand in the outcome.

Bad: Disable enemy builder for a few seconds.

Good: Summon a Scourge near the enemy builder that will chase them for a few seconds. If it hits, their movement is dramatically slowed for a few seconds.

The first one is basically just a "fuck you" to the victim. The second one actually creates gameplay. Every offensive ability needs to have a defensive counter available, and shouldn't be so crushing that you don't have time to react to it even if it does hit you.

Ultimately, success will come from attacking better than your target defends. And of course, the design should be such that all spells give you at least some effect even if the opponent manages to avoid the worst of it. So mechanics would be like-

Effect : Offensive / Defensive

Multi Tower Range : - / +

Multi Tower Speed : - / +

Single Tower Range : -- / ++ (so building a single tower and buffing it massively becomes a risk/reward scenario)

Single Tower Speed : -- / ++ ("")

Multi Creep : Minor Speed Burst / Minor Stun

Single Creep : ++Speed / --Speed OR ++Health / ++Dmg Received ...etc (basically uberfy or cripple one creep)

Builder: Chase-And-Bad-Effect / Blink (Maybe slow builder as mentioned above...maybe steal some minerals...but it's mostly avoidable if you're on your toes)

...etc

Anyway, it doesn't have to be exactly any of that, but I think I've conveyed my point. Being bombarded with shit you can't do anything about isn't exactly fun. Outplaying your opponent is

[Chiquihuite]

And maybe some nifty passive options, like "enemy creep evasion", "own creep chance to receive double damage", "interest increase" (to replace the current interest picks using vespene)... and who knows what else

[Twilice]

^ the creep one is exactly what I meant. Both players actually got an option, first the attacker in the way he uses a spell. And then the defender can try to avoid or reduce the effect of a spell.

[Karawasa]

Third Try:

Cost = 100/300/1000/3000 Custom Resource

No stacking of disables/buffs/debuffs

Builder has 15 max mana, regenerates 1 mana every 5 seconds, and gains 5 mana upon player clearing wave

Builder

• Disable builder summoning for 7 seconds, 60/45/30/15 second CD, 4/3/2/1 mana cost
• Slow builder by 4 movespeed for 15 seconds, 60/45/30/15 second CD, 4/3/2/1 mana cost
• Drain 2/4/6/8 mana from builder over 5 seconds, 45 second CD, 3 mana cost
• Prevent all future builder debuffs for 7/14/21/28 seconds, 45 second CD, 3 mana cost
• Passive increase interest rate by 0.25/0.5/0.75/1.0 percent
• Passive builder movespeed increase of 1.5/3/4.5/6
• Passive builder mana regeneration increase of 0.5/1/1.5/2

Tower

• Reduce tower attack speed by 15/30/60/120 percent for 30 seconds, 15 second CD, 1 mana cost
• Reduce tower attack damage by 15/30/60/120 percent for 30 seconds, 15 second CD, 1 mana cost
• Reduce tower range by 2/4/6/8 for 30 seconds, 15 second CD, 1 mana cost
• Disable tower abilities (sell, upgrade, cast etc.) for 60 seconds, 60/45/30/15 second CD, 4/3/2/1 mana cost
• Reduce towers in 6 AoE attack speed by 5/10/20/40 percent for 30 seconds, 45 second CD, 3 mana cost
• Reduce towers in 6 AoE attack damage by 5/10/20/40 percent for 30 seconds, 45 second CD, 3 mana cost
• Reduce towers in 6 AoE range by 2/4/6/8 for 30 seconds, 45 second CD, 3 mana cost
• Disable towers abilities (sell, upgrade, cast etc.) in 6 AoE for 30 seconds, 45 second CD, 3 mana cost
• Dispel all debuffs on 1/2/3/4 towers (chain), 15 second CD, 1 mana cost
• Dispel all debuffs on towers in 6 AoE, 90/60/45/30 second CD, 6/4/3/2 mana cost
• Prevent all future debuffs on tower for 15/30/45/60 seconds, 15 second CD, 1 mana cost

Creep

• Increase creep movespeed by 4 for 15/30/45/60 seconds, 15 second CD, 1 mana cost
• Increase creep damage reduction by 50% for 15/30/45/60 seconds, 15 second CD, 1 mana cost
• 2/4/6/8 (chain) creep debuff immunity for 30 seconds, 30 second CD, 2 mana cost
• Increase creep in 6 AoE movespeed by 2 for 30 seconds, 90/60/45/30 second CD, 6/4/3/2 mana cost
• Increase creep in 6 AoE damage reduction by 25% for 30 seconds, 90/60/45/30 second CD, 6/4/3/2 mana cost
• Heal 1/2/3/4 (chain) creeps for 100%, 30 second CD, 2 mana cost
• A 6 AoE creep heal of 10/20/30/40 percent over 5 seconds, 60 second CD, 4 mana cost
• 7 (chain) creep buff immunity for 30 seconds, 60/45/30/15 second CD, 4/3/2/1 mana cost
• Dispel all debuffs for creeps in 6 AoE, 45 second CD, 3 mana cost

[Twilice]

Only lacks moving stuff to avoid or attack (it would really be awesome to lets say send a bunch of skeletons to a player, each hit the player takes increase the slow value, the timers are independent of each other.) Same with stunning units, lets say a big ultralisk enters your area. Either you just wait him out being basically permanently stunned or you try to avoid him.

Thoughts about that? It's basically the same, just that it's a bit more mechanics behind stun x/2x/3x/4x seconds. It could lets say increase the mob move speed or attack rate. It could even be falling bombs you have to avoid or you get stunned by a great duration.

In order to prepare for this mode some towers would need to have it's micro reduced. (like "tidal").

[Karawasa]

After discussion with Chiq, I've decided it should use a custom resource instead of minerals. Custom resource would be given upon creep kill, getting progressively larger depending on level (and difficulty).

Updated to reflect a third try.

[Twilice]

Better.

[haupty]

If you include a passive interest increase to tempt us financial types, then include a % based steal option, I will pull my hair out, lol. But yeah I really enjoyed the vs spells in the old Enfo's team survival so this could be some fun variety. I always liked sending aura creeps. Maybe something cool would be the freeze bubble from starjeweled. It could be used to buy time defensively, or used offensively by holding the last few of a wave so they overlap with the next wave, or even better, elemental bosses.

[Chiquihuite]

We've talked about % based steal. It could still make it in.

One thing I'm really pushing for is to try to make anything direct like that (steal resources, stun builder, drain mana, etc) avoidable in such a way that it will have some effect on you, but you've got reactive options (like moving, or using a spell) to mitigate the damage.

I like the single creep stasis idea.