"What if...?" - Simplification

[Chiquihuite]

Alright let's face it: after you've played a few games, the first 10 or so waves are pretty much a snoozefest. You're playing "Element TD" but all you do is grab interest ups and resell grenade towers. YAWN.

In fact, Short Mode exists specifically because the early levels are boring. The idea being that more experienced players can pick it and get right into the hot elemental-y action. But how many of you have actually played a pickup game on Short Mode? It pretty much doesn't happen. And the fact that it's needed in the first place is a problem.

So what if...

• We cut the first 5/10 waves and started players with 1/2 vespene accordingly. Elements summoned before the first wave would get...I dunno nuked or something. This gets you right into the meat of things.
• IF we do the above: Cut the lowest level of grenade/ray/single element towers (you'd start with advanced/amplified at 20/175 mins respectively.) They'd be kind of pointless without the first 10 waves.
• We gated interest upgrades until later in the game OR made them less important such that only dual element builds would be likely to grab them early. This would help people not feel like they *have* to interest-whore.

I feel like the game would be dramatically more fun with these adjustments. They'd be major changes and won't happen lightly, but I'd love to see some discussion on them.

What do you guys think?

[Vyce663]

I mean. I gotta be honest i like the beginning of it. Although i have played short mode a few times I normally play normal. I like it being there as a OPTION.

My opinion of course

[maverck]

im not sure if it's needed, short mode is there

skipping the early rounds by default feels like it would make it difficult for new players aswell

is there really a simple cookie cutter build everyone does for the first 10 levels?

[Karawasa]

I have yet to see Short/Extra Short picked in a public game.

[Chiquihuite]

I have yet to see Short/Extra Short picked in a public game.

And that's because people just faceroll the standard options.

@Mav: Yes, there is. Build grenade towers. Rays if you're interest whoring long enough to hit fast waves. That's *all* there is with no variety.

I think it'd be quite easy to balance the waves such that it's not any more of a stress to new players, and still leave the options open. Even if we cut the first 5 waves and let you start with a single element, it'd be an improvement.

Also, what about gating interest? Any thoughts on forcing at least the first 1-2 vespene to go to element picks? It seems genuinely FUBAR to me that the optimum way to play is to take interest for your first two picks and not even use any real element towers 'til like wave 15-20. To be perfectly honest, it's boring.

[Vyce663]

I've gotta agree about the intrest thing but. I'm not totally sure why the intrest upgrades were included in the game in the first place. To be honest thats what should be gone with.

[HiggsBoson]

Instead of removing Interest, here's another major idea: Get rid of the 100% return on composite towers. I abuse the hell out of this and I micro it enough to always gain an advantage, but I never find it boring. I hate Short Mode because it eliminates any advantage you can gain with good micro, which is essentially the last interesting skill in this game that hasn't been nerfed.

Of course I think the idea is bogus and I'd stop playing this game if it happened, but the point is Short Mode doesn't offer that early game competitiveness. So pubbies don't play Short, and Micro-ers like me don't play Short.

Also, aethetically no one picks Short: Drop down lists = face roll. Selection buttons = better chance to make a choice. The removal of Host option also removed a great chance of getting in a Short game.

[Megadramon]

Reselling composite towers is necessary and would ruin gameplay if the resell value were to be put at 75%.

[Chiquihuite]

Reselling composite towers is necessary and would ruin gameplay if the resell value were to be put at 75%.

Not saying I disagree with you, but for the sake of discussion...

What makes them necessary? Could we meet that need in a different way that could perhaps be more fun?

What if Tier 1 element towers also sold for 100%? (Flexibility in early waves)

What if composite towers did only 80% damage to non-composite targets? (Promotes transition to appropriate element towers after early waves)

OR

What if all towers sold for 100% for the first X waves, and sell value slowly declined from that point? (Flexibility in early waves, but you're eventually forced to commit)

The idea of initial freedom to build/sell with an eventual need to commit really sounds attractive to me. It allows for meaningful gains from early micro while still placing an upper limit on late-game complexity.

[Megadramon]

I feel reselling is needed in VH. Other difficulties I believe you can just keep your initial composite towers there until you get your elements. Reselling is not just for interest, but to defeat waves more effectively by selling older towers and essentially moving them downwards to catch the wave again. It's the basic skill you'll need to play on that difficulty if you ask me.

If we were to go by your idea to change things up a little, we'd have to find a suitable substitute such as the stuff you've suggested; though, I don't know what to say about them, and I currently have no alternatives.

I still like to use composite towers later in the game if I'm doing an AP build to kill off lvl3 bosses, so I still like to take advantage of reselling later in the game.

[Arc Project]

Summary so far(skip if you have read the posts above):

 The proposed change is:

- Take out the early generic gameplay involving composite towers and get right into using Element Towers like the map name suggests.(I agree)


 Because:

 - It gets repetitive and fall into the same play style everytime.(I agree)


 But this change will pose problems as pointed out already by forum regulars:

- This may cause over-simplification in game-play to a point, seasoned players will find the game boring.(Higgsboson and others). Interest-Reselling is a technique used extensively to gain edge over other players. Without it, Element TD is basically a low APM Tower defense with simple build order and placement(Squad TD??)


- Reselling is REQUIRED to play through Hard/Very Hard difficulties.(Megadramon). The amount of minerals gained from killing creeps alone are not enough. That's a good thing IMO.

I like the concept of getting right down to the business. I am assuming composite towers still come into play somewhat and game starts from lvl 5-10ish.

Suggestions:

- As Vyce663 stated, get rid of interest upgrade altogether. We are pigeon-holed into taking this upgrade because it is too good.

- Replace it with an upgrade that let you sell element towers for 100% refund. W..Wait! Please hear me out. Consider that players with random option already enjoy this benefit. Naturally, they will get this upgrade for free at start.

Why?:

- Skilled Players can continue with early reselling, this time, using Element Towers! Clever selection of elements and quick-thinking will net you with extra income at a cost of 1 element choice.

- Players who wish to play more conventional all-pick may do so with a wider variety of elements to choose from.

- No more bullshit interest upgrade at level 55 for random players

- These changes offer a choice in playstyle for all pick mode. Honestly, reselling/adding element towers to optimize cost performance is what makes random mode so dynamic and fun! Why can't AP players have a bit of fun too?

p.s Why so much hate on interest hoarding? It's one of the reasons ETD is so unique from the rest.

[Chiquihuite]

p.s Why so much hate on interest hording? It's one of the reasons ETD is so unique from the rest.

Interest hoarding is ok, just not to the point where you can fill up your entire map with top tier towers.

Anyway, good points on the other stuff. Definitely something to consider.

[Karawasa]

Perhaps one upgrade is 87.5% and two upgrades is 100% sell.

[Vyce663]

Very reasonable if you ask me.

[Arc Project]

A test build order for Very Hard AP.

Refundlvl1 Refundlvl2 DWNL DWN L L

This gives by 30th wave:

- Flooding Tower(Water)

- Hail Tower(Light)

- Obliteration Tower(Darkness)

Three of arguably the best dps towers. Because of 100% refund, they become completely interchangeable for each wave.

Also:

- Clone/Spring Towers(Tier 2) for buffs.

- Pure Light Tower x 2 by wave 55

Pros:

- Players can mass one of the three dps towers to inflict double damage on many waves while eliminating the chance of doing reduced damage.

- Mix and match them for other waves like composite creeps.

- Sell off towers while waiting for a new wave to arrive to get more interests.

- Unlike in random mode, there's no need to wait for planets to align themselves for lucky element spawns.

Cons:

- Giving up 2 element choices.

- Shaky Early game because element picks are delayed until 15th wave.

- Shaky Middle game around 40-45th wave having to fend off with just tier 1 three element towers.

Of course this is hypothetical. Many other possible variations.

What do you think?

[Chiquihuite]

That's basically the same thing as interest - people not even touching the elements until 15 minutes into the game. I like the thought of making 100% refund available at a cost, but I don't feel good about cost coming in that particular form.

[joesi]

I find many new players have problems with even the first rounds when they are playing on normal or easy. Because of this I don't think the default play style should be changed.

If anything, I find the last 5-10 levels are just as boring, because by that point you're either most likely dead, or most-likely filthy rich just loading up on interest and getting ready to fill the map with more towers.