Starting Minerals (Short Mode)

[Karawasa]

Pretty simple topic. Do you guys feel that the 900 you start off with in Short Mode is enough? I'm mainly asking this to the Very Hard players. The idea was to prevent double dual at the start. Was that wise?

[WindStrike]

Funny part is that the Earth+Nature dual tower solos them up through 18. 900 seems fine, I have no qualms with it.

[Karawasa]

How does it feel at 950?

[ele]

How does it feel at 950?

Is that what you'll normally get if you played regular without interest upgrade?

[Karawasa]

Is that what you'll normally get if you played regular without interest upgrade?

Ideally, yes. It would not consider sell/rebuild. It would account for building properly (minimum possible, for interest). Also, it would assume Normal. Though, the difficulties don't vary that much in terms of total bounty the first 15 levels.

[Aranneas]

You probably should be accounting for at least the possibility of sell/build. Attached replay has some mistakes but already you can see the single player discrepancy. I hit 900 minerals almost at the end of wave 12. After wave 15, I have over 1500. With enough care and/or taking double interest, I'd be willing to bet it is possible to hit 1800 or more - literally twice what you were awarding before.

Of course this is solely indicative of single player. Your estimate is probably closer to the mark for a 12 player race. Might I suggest something like 1350, minus 50 for each player beyond the first? You could probably also have taking interest within the first minute grant an instant mineral bonus or something along those lines.

Aranneas 68 Fruit Kills.SC2Replay

[holepercent]

remember that starting with one or two extra investments gives way more minerals, even more if you sell and rebuild heavily..

~1000 minerals is closer to what you get without spending gas on extra investments at competitive tower placements..

[Aranneas]

If you're telling me sell/rebuild is not how the game is supposed to be played then why does it still give 100% minerals back?

Gonna test 0, 1, and 2 interest with buyback. Replays pending.

Update: 0 interest is up, once again with some mistakes. Hits 900 during wave 13. 1250 after wave 15, 1300 just after wave 16 hits. Based on this preliminary result I'd revise my suggestion to base 1200 minerals, less 20 per additional player. Tentatively I'd say taking a gas should give 200 less 10 per additional player, though this is still with no data on double interest.

I'll get a 'perfect' play, including no leaks, test up then go for 1 and 2 interest. Right now I need to go to work.

0 interest 1250_1300.SC2Replay

[ele]

If you're telling me sell/rebuild is not how the game is supposed to be played then why does it still give 100% minerals back?

Gonna test 0, 1, and 2 interest with buyback. Replays pending.

Update: 0 interest is up, once again with some mistakes. Hits 900 during wave 13. 1250 after wave 15, 1300 just after wave 16 hits. Based on this preliminary result I'd revise my suggestion to base 1200 minerals, less 20 per additional player. Tentatively I'd say taking a gas should give 200 less 10 per additional player, though this is still with no data on double interest.

I'll get a 'perfect' play, including no leaks, test up then go for 1 and 2 interest. Right now I need to go to work.

I think short mode shouldn't give as high as 1250 simply because this map is designed not only for single player play, but also multiplayer play. In the case of public play, I think it will be fairly difficult to have such a perfect play as there is a good chance someone on very easy mode will be spawn killing. Base minerals upped to 1100 or something would make sense to me though. This base minerals shouldn't account for any interest strategy as this is personal preference, some people don't go for interest first and they shouldn't be benefiting from short mode bc of it.

An alternate way of short mode could be awarding players with additional minerals if they choose interest instead of an element. Ie purchasing 1 interest will gain them additional say 200 minerals etc. This would save players some time doing the first 15 waves if their aim is testing a mid/late game build.

[Karawasa]

If you're telling me sell/rebuild is not how the game is supposed to be played then why does it still give 100% minerals back?

I don't recall saying that . What I am saying is that "interest farming" is above and beyond the call of duty. In other words, you shouldn't need to do it to beat the game (multiplayer may vary). Therefore, I do not think it should be considered when calculating Short and Extra Short mode starting minerals.

I am leaning towards making it 1000/6000 up from 950/5700 in the next version.

[Aranneas]

I think short mode shouldn't give as high as 1250 simply because this map is designed not only for single player play, but also multiplayer play. In the case of public play, I think it will be fairly difficult to have such a perfect play as there is a good chance someone on very easy mode will be spawn killing. Base minerals upped to 1100 or something would make sense to me though. This base minerals shouldn't account for any interest strategy as this is personal preference, some people don't go for interest first and they shouldn't be benefiting from short mode bc of it.

You didn't read the suggestion. 1200 less 20 per additional player. That means 1100 if there's 6 players, 1000 if there's 11.

An alternate way of short mode could be awarding players with additional minerals if they choose interest instead of an element. Ie purchasing 1 interest will gain them additional say 200 minerals etc. This would save players some time doing the first 15 waves if their aim is testing a mid/late game build.

Again, this is exactly what I suggested. 200 minerals per point of interest - again, with an adjustment based on number of players. Please actually read my post before responding. I don't mean this to sound adversarial but I hope you can understand it's a bit frustrating.

I don't recall saying that . What I am saying is that "interest farming" is above and beyond the call of duty. In other words, you shouldn't need to do it to beat the game (multiplayer may vary). Therefore, I do not think it should be considered when calculating Short and Extra Short mode starting minerals.

I don't feel that the concept of something being 'above and beyond the call of duty' really applies to a game like this. I'm not suggesting that it should be necessary to obsessively farm interest in order to complete the game. You should totally still be able to just play and mess around without worrying too much about interest and I'm not suggesting you remove the potential for this.

I am stating the fact that it is necessary if you are attempting to achieve a competitive score. As it stands it is lunacy to attempt a fruit run in a short mode play unless this is specifically the challenge you are setting yourself - because that's exactly what it is, a deliberate handicap. Bringing it more into line with a competitive basis (not necessarily entirely even, just not such a wide discrepancy) wouldn't take any of the fun out of just playing the game.

I am leaning towards making it 1000/6000 up from 950/5700 in the next version.

Wouldn't be enough to get me to play short mode for anything other than what I use it for currently. Of course, the game's not just for me, but that's my opinion on it. I'm fine with it being less than the 'theoretical optimum amount' but it should still be close enough that I don't feel cheated when I'm really trying to accomplish a goal.

Edit: revised again to 1200 minus 30 per additional player once I realized that you can only have 8 people in a game. You can tell I don't play multiplayer much. XD

[ele]

haha sorry it was nearly 3am when i replied but yeah its not a big deal to make that much amends to the starting minerals. its worth it for people wanting to save some time doing the first 15. its a trade-off really time vs money

[Aranneas]

2 interest run came out with just under 1750 minerals after wave 15 and this one was damn near perfect. Not gonna bother posting broken replays but I will if requested. Based on that and a few more one-interest and multiplayer games I've run, my best suggestion is the following:

- 1200 minerals base for single player, reduced by 30 minerals for each player beyond the first.

- 200 minerals per point of interest for single player, reduced by 10 minerals for each player beyond the first.

Hard data for multiplayer is pretty much impossible with such a wide array of possible scenarios but I'll go with the original estimate. This comes fairly close to it. It's not actually that much more than you've got at the moment for single player, but the difference does feel like it matters, at least to me. And interest does need to have more of a marked impact for the short mode start.

Edit: not as perfect as I thought. 1700 and change. New values for suggestions - same as the preceding ones, almost.