Blacksmith and Well Towers

[WindStrike]

Blacksmith and Well Towers just seem straight out overpowered at the level 3 variants (don't remember their names) where they increase a tower's damage/attack speed by 200%. Once you have either, you've pretty much won the rest of the game. The first two level variants are ok and nice to have as the last thing you need to add to your defense, and I suppose they're fine, but the 200% increase just seems like too much.

Also, there's a slight issue I noticed regarding the Well Tower speed boost - eventually, a tower can attack so fast that there'll be wasted shots where the attack will hit the spot after the target has already died, causing the Blacksmith to have an advantage because you don't have as many wasted shots with them (the occasional time when your high damaging tower hits a 1-hp target, but it's not as bad as the wasted shots). It's not something really bad except with long range towers that hit a spot an extra time such that it would be better without the well tower.

[jolin012]

yes, they seem a bit too strong in this version - or at least tehy're too strong early on. but do you remember the power of NOT getting a tier 3 tower in the 6ele build in 4.0 PB? That's why we erm - maybe did adjust it a bit too much. maybe it isn't too strong - did anyone try a 5 or 6ele build yet? (getting 4 eles up to tier 2 first, then 1 more to tier 2 and then a tier 1.) the reason that tier 3 well/blacksmith/trickery aka waterfall/forge/eidolon are so strong is because the 2 eles spent on that has to equal the choice of adding tier 1 and 2 of a new element to a 4ele build to make it a 6ele build.

for example:

FFNNLLWW+WN

has to equal

FFNNLLWW+EE

The tier 3 well in this case, has to equal adding a tier 2 blacksmith, AND a tier 2 Enchantment AND a tier 2 Polar. each of those boost about 30%. also keep in mind that making a 30% boost tower into a 200% boost tower is not to increase your power by 200%. nor is it increasing your power by 170%. upgrading well from tier 2 to tier 3 grants you 130% more power (170/130). and enchantment blacksmith and polar would equal 1.3*1.3*1.3=120%. in a quick calculation that is. that should explain why we thought 200% boost would be balanced and why we made it that way, we have calculated alot on this - however, ingame it's a different story and that might prove us wrong.

As mentioned above -I believe ya that t3 (tier 3) support duals (smith/trickery/well) are too powerful, but I believe that is only the case early on. that they can be used at level 30 already to make you finish the waves so fast that you can kill the other players or just if you wanna make life easier. anyway, there is no proof yet that I've seen about 6ele build sucking. and - I duidn't quite try it out myself yet. But that one can't be abused early on. t3 duals can - and that's why tier 3 elementals has to have higher hp than they currently have if summoned early. I've been yelling about this for mounths but - maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't help. and maybe you're right that builds with dual pwn too much.

[Guest soyamilks]

however, a 5 element build got many more towers to build the number of triples can be build jumped from 4 to 10, I think triple is difference with duals. Triples usually get some more special effect and duals do not.

By the way, I want a level 3 triple, is it possible, since picking 3 ele for three times got limited builds

[jolin012]

@tier 3 triples. this type of ideas usually have <1% chance to be reasonable.

um - however that might actually maybe eventually - work.. a tier 3 triple tower would make 4 and 5ele stronger meaning we are allowed to nerf the tier 3 duals support a bit more if we want that. What I don't like is that there is even more reason to pick tier 3 of all elements before anything else. what if they cost pure essences? I'm to tired to develop a descent idea out of what you suggested right now. But this one has >1% chance to work^^ maybe even >1.5%

[WindStrike]

If there were a tier 3 triple, the total cost of it would be more than a pure tower, unless you decided to jack the costs up on those to the original costs. And then it'd be ridiculously powerful and more than likely, too powerful (lol, -30 armor with level 3 enchantment towers newbs), and in some cases (durr, 75% slowing suckers)... I'm personally against tier 3 triples, though I wouldn't be able to do anything about it if the team decides to add it in.

5-element tower... ... nah.

[holepercent]

t3 support duals are too strong in the early-mid game but probably balanced for the endgame.. anyone tried to rush t3 damage duals early-midgame?

t3 triples would probably be imbalanced.. players have to decide on playing t3 duals vs t2 triples now..

t3 triples would definately be stronger than t3 duals.. which probably means t3 triples all the way.. either that increase in creep hp which makes the t3 duals worse..

and yes, no quad element towers or 5-ele towers..

[Karawasa]

I too am curious if t3 duals are imbalanced now, both support and damage.

In regards to more complicated towers, they will have to wait for a retail version. In the future, we will hopefully be able to expand the game and pursue some of the ideas that seem implausible now. In the present, the priority for development post 4.1 will be competitive balance and additional game modes.

[WindStrike]

Looking at the costs between Dual tier 3 and Triple tier 2, it's 3150 vs. 5000, yet I feel some (not all) of the duals are about equal to the triple tier 2's. Then again, a lot of the those triples aren't meant for massing.

Also, regarding the Well/Blacksmith potential issue... ever notice how the only way to pull a triple-element combo off is with either one of those? So far, EFD, EFN, EFL, EFW, EFN, WNE, and WNF all work. I've yet to try WNL or WND though. I've attempted other triple combos, but without the blacksmith/well tier 3 support, it doesn't work.

EDIT: Tested, and all combos with Well/Blacksmith tier 3 work.

[holepercent]

t3 duals are stronger than t2 triples in terms of dps.. but most triples are stronger with support.

suppose t3 trickery 3-element builds should work.. but it is harder to play.. LDW, LDE and LDF should all be playable too.. LDN maybe not with no 'real' damage tower.. trickery, life and disease don't quite make a build..