jolin012 Posted August 24, 2008 There was tower balance analysis requested I heard, and So I started. Here is First an analysis of wethere it is hard/easy to master the tower, that's important imo cause the one that is hardest to master(placement/micro etc) deserves a higher maximum output. Also if they have weaknesses such as fighting bosses, that is mentioed witch should grant a little higher regular(ie when not fighting bosses) dps. Current Dps and my sugguested dps (aka which ones need a buff or and so) are to come later. As for supporters, both their damage and their support may vary. for example voodoo might be very hard to master and have a very low damage but instead do a great boost. Which makes the tower a tower for the masters, while perhaps corrosion has a nice damage low boost and easy to use, a good tower for beginners. Support Duals: [pre:a4sh2ugj]+---------------+------------+-----------+ | Support Duals | Weaknesses | Strengths | +---------------+------------+-----------+ | Well | None | None | +---------------+------------+-----------+ | Smith | None | None | +---------------+------------+-----------+ | Trickery | Bugs | Bugs | +---------------+------------+-----------+[/pre:a4sh2ugj] Support Triples: [pre:a4sh2ugj]+-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | Support Triples | Weaknesses | Strengths | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | | | | | Windstorm | Must Master Placement for | Can cover a very large | | | only one of it tower to be | area. | | | required. | Can be used to manually | | | Must Master Micro for | clump creeps. | | | only one of it tower to be | | | | required. | | | | Upgrading to Moonsoon must | | | | be timed due to the dis- | | | | appearance of tornado. | | | | | | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | | | | | Nova | Must Master Placement but | | | | isn't very hard to figure. | | | | Several of the tower | | | | reuired unless playing | | | | only Kindle, Tidal etc. | | | | | | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | | | | | Muck | Must Master Placement but | Can clump creeps if placed | | | is very easy to figure. | for it. | | | Several of the tower | | | | reuired. | | | | | | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | | | | | Roots | Must Master Placement but | Can cover a very large | | | very easy. | area but only if microed | | | Must Micro for maximum out-| which usually takes more | | | put. Most likely Several. | time than it's worth. | | | | | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | | | | | Enchantment | Several of it required. | Easily renews the curse. | | | | | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | | | | | Corrossion | Must Master Placement | | | | but that should it easy. | | | | Several of it required. | | | | | | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | | | | | Voodoo | Must master it's placement | | | | which is hard. | Works extra good if | | | Must Know which tower it | combined with correct | | | combines best with | damage towers. | | | | | | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | | | | | Polar | Must Master it's placement | Works extra good if | | | Must Know which tower it | combined with correct | | | combines best with | damage towers. | | | | | +-----------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+[/pre:a4sh2ugj] Damage Duals: [pre:a4sh2ugj]Tower Placement Micro Bosses W/Slow Other Ice - + -- ++ The best location ain't that easy, but most locations on 2pass work well enough. Electricity + + -- - Doesn't always get use of the extra damage in the bounces when soloing. Life + + + + Lives for you my friend, could be used as a leak catcher as leaks often come with low health. Although leak catchers are mostly temporary. Quark - + + +++ Combine it with the correct support duals it's current mood. Poison - -- --- ++ Magic - + ++ - charging up Corpse Exp ? ? ? ? no knowledge yet Gunpowder + - -- ++ a little bit random, only a little. Longrange, dangerous in multiplayer. Kindle - + --- ++ very safe tower if you have calculated. Hydro + + - ++ random Flame - - -- ++ mostly only placement OR micro needed. Mushroom - + ++ - charging up[/pre:a4sh2ugj] Damage Triples: [pre:a4sh2ugj]Tower Placement Micro Bosses W/Slow Other Hail + + -- - Jinx -- + --- ++ the placement "--" means placement "-" and set orb rotation another "-" Oblivion + -- +++ -- charging up... slowly Laser + -- - - I'd like to see this microable. preferably attackspeed 1 and the old laser projectile model. Tidal - -- + +++ Gold + + + - gold Drowning + + + - random Flamethro + + - +++ low knowledge Impulse + --- +++ -- Flesh Gol + -- ++ - low knowledge Quaker - + + +++ bit random, clever combination solves it, like slowing towers trickery or well. Zealout - + + +++ charges up... with slowing towers[/pre:a4sh2ugj] Go to top Share this post Link to post
Twilice Posted August 24, 2008 Very nice, but drowning should have atleast 2 plusses for bosses, maybe 3. Go to top Share this post Link to post
jolin012 Posted August 24, 2008 no, it belongs to a 2pass and deals it's damage to one creep, which makes it equal to life and gold towers for example (this has nothing to do with those towers being weak). I think what you misunderstand is the effect of the tower, it might look like overpowered vs bosses when it's lucky to get a kill on a lv 3 boss, but that chance avarages a damage that is the towers regular damage, it's not better vs bosses for any reason. Go to top Share this post Link to post
jolin012 Posted September 5, 2008 as a response to this thread as i like to keep my work in the thread i allready started for this. I've already ranked the duals in this thread. Check there for details of the rankings and why they are like they are. But to make things more clear I'll just quote the rankings of dmg duals and then add some lines of explanation and what I want. Quote: Top Strength Ranks: Poison Ice Electricity Flame Gunpowder Kindle Hydro Mush Magic Quark Death Life Hardest to Master: Death Flame Ice Poison Quark Kindle Gunpowder Electricity Life Magic Mushroom Hydro (as for how i put my "hardest to master" - list together, most is concluded in first post of this therad. but also other factors are included, and changes since b12, such as the range of 1100 which makes for a bit harder placement and limited placement slots, but not very bad on a regular area like 6.) Most clearly is shown that quark needs a pretty large buff. it's not very easy to place, it's not just a regular 2pass like over area 6 and 9, and if you do place it wrong it hurts pretty badly. Mushroom and magic and perhaps also hydro should need a buff as well, even though they're meant to be the weakest they shall not be that weak. Poison and Ice and Electricity should all face a nerf. Electricity is pretty easily played but yet one of the overpowered duals. poison and ice are a bit harder to place and micro and sucks badly vs bosses, aka requires wise combination with boss hunting towers, therefore should remain some of the stronger towers but are currently far too strong. Lifetower is meant to lowest damage which is pretty obvious, and death tower is simply broken, the concept doesn't seem to work. dmg triples and support triples and support duals are to come. Go to top Share this post Link to post
jolin012 Posted October 4, 2008 With a first look at beta 15 i can say that: Flame quickly popped up to very easy to use. only problem qould be bosses where it deals about a 4th of the damage. (although kindle and such deal only a 10th of dmg to bosses) (4 is the avarage number of creeps within the burn radius). It is also very powerful - more overpowered than ice and poison. Ice and poison are about 30-40% too powerful and flame is about 50% too powerful. therefore I sugguest to attempt to nerf ice down by 25% poison down by 30% and flame by 33%. Beta 15 has some nice changes but it's sad to see that team mode, new ronald system and big bombs for SW are not yet in use or even tested out. Go to top Share this post Link to post
DDRKirby(ISQ) Posted October 4, 2008 heh, yeah. flame was definitely not useable as it was in previous betas, but now...well, i like the fact that it stacks, but the damage reduction didn't really seem like enough. haven't actually tried it out myself though (aside from short tests)... Go to top Share this post Link to post
Guest Timberwolf Posted October 5, 2008 Something I've been meaning to bring up for a while now but I keep forgetting. Oblivion needs some reworking. I understand the reasoning behind reducing the summoning time to 15 seconds from 30, since initially when built under the 30 second model it's pretty much useless for a wave/half a wave. But under the 15 second model, it really is useless for the one thing it's supposed to do, which is be mobile and cover a lot of ground. It's pretty much impossible to move the summoned creatures anywhere and have them last long enough to be meaningful under the 15 second rule; they are resummoned so fast it negates the usefulness of the idea. I think it requires a longer summoning window to do what it's supposed to do, personally. Either that or the summons need a range (or damage) buff. Go to top Share this post Link to post
jolin012 Posted October 5, 2008 yap, hey must live at least 30 sec. else the tower doesn't work out, the movement would be a waste of 50% of their own lifetime, to travel from area 5 to say 7, 3 and 9. Perhaps the way to get the tower going faster would be to "summon 4 dragons on build & delete all 4 on sell". Or is anyone a fan of the uniqueness of taking 60sec to charge up? I'm not. Go to top Share this post Link to post
Karawasa Posted October 5, 2008 yap, hey must live at least 30 sec. else the tower doesn't work out, the movement would be a waste of 50% of their own lifetime, to travel from area 5 to say 7, 3 and 9. Perhaps the way to get the tower going faster would be to "summon 4 dragons on build & delete all 4 on sell". Or is anyone a fan of the uniqueness of taking 60sec to charge up? I'm not. Actually they were changed somewhat recently to spawn every 10 seconds and last 30. Thus 3 minions are out at most instead of 4. Do note then that it only takes 30 seconds to charge up now. Go to top Share this post Link to post
jolin012 Posted October 7, 2008 Sorry I must've missed that in changelog. and i guess 30 sec is ok. not sure about 6k dps, because it loses a bit to traveling, both traveling to outer areas, and to cover for the short range. perhaps add a little bit more of attack speed? =) incase it proves too weak. Go to top Share this post Link to post
Karawasa Posted October 7, 2008 Sorry I must've missed that in changelog. and i guess 30 sec is ok. not sure about 6k dps, because it loses a bit to traveling, both traveling to outer areas, and to cover for the short range. perhaps add a little bit more of attack speed? =) incase it proves too weak. I buffed the minions so that 3 = 4. Go to top Share this post Link to post
Cisz Posted November 22, 2008 Ok, for the upcoming ballance meeting i tested all towers (except the support duals) for damage, relative to their class. Single - Tested with 12 Amped on 22 Light + Dark + Water needs Buff (+1 but slower maybe?) Fire + Nature needs Buff? (is on par with earth/fire w/o slow) Earth + Dmg Duals - Tested with 6 lv2 on 38 Ice Base tower (all compared to this) Electricity + Life Slight buff? Quark Needs buff; is on par with ice w/o slow Poison Slight nerf Magic Is on par with Ice/Flame; might need buff Disease Slight nerf Gunpowder Slight nerf Kindle Buff +25% (?) Hydro Nerf a bit Flame + Mushroom Buff; Even worse than Elt w/o slow Not tested: Trickery --- Well --- Blacksmith --- Dmg Triples - 8 lv 1 on 38 Hail Slight buff maybe (is slightly waeker than Zealot but no splash) Radius Slight buff, weaker than Quaker (depending on test results of slow/st) Oblivion Slight boost, maybe give back splash?^^ Laser + Tidal + (depending on test results of slow/st) Gold Buff, probably a lot Drowning Maybe slight buff? Flamethrower Nerf, stronger than Zealot, even w/o slow Impulse Slight buff. Zealot Base tower (all compared to this) Flesh Golem Buff Quaker slight nerf, stronger than Radius (depending on test results of slow/st) Support Triples - 1 lv1 on 22 Windstorm Slight nerf Polar Does it include the dmg increase of the same attack? If so, buff. Nova Base tower (all compared to this) Enchantment Nerf. Corrosion Nerf, does more dmg 2pass then nova long pass. Muck Slight nerf. Voodoo Buff. Roots Nerf, does more dmg 2pass then nova long pass (less dmg than corrosion) Replay of that is attached. 1592 Etd(4b17b vh) testing all towers.w3g Go to top Share this post Link to post
