Flesh Golems

[Karawasa]

Current:

Way of determining share of XP (for multiple Golems):

Set flesh_xp_share = (1.50 / (Real((Number of units in (Units within Flesh_Golem_XP_radius of (Position of (Dying unit)) matching ((Level of Flesh Growth for (Matching unit)) Greater than 0))))))

Flesh_Golem_XP_radius = 700

Way of giving mana to Golem:

Unit - Set mana of (Picked unit) to ((Percentage mana of (Picked unit)) + (((Max life of (Dying unit)) x flesh_xp_share) / (Flesh_Golem_Base_XP x (Power(1.20, ((Real((Level of Flesh Growth for (Picked unit)))) - 1.00))))))%

Flesh_Golem_Base_XP = 500

Threshold:

75 Mana to level up ability by one (adding 10% damage)

Base Damage:

2000

Proposed:

Base Damage:

3000

Threshhold:

100 Mana to level up ability by one (adding 10% damage)

Way of determining share of XP (for multiple Golems):

Set flesh_xp_share = (1.1 - 0.1*(Number of units in (Units within Flesh_Golem_XP_radius of (Position of (Dying unit)) matching ((Level of Flesh Growth for (Matching unit)) Greater than 0))))

This way, 10 golems would still give you only 10% of XP. However, having two would not hurt as much as 1/#. I realize that you are limited to 10 golems this way. Any other ideas out there for this?

Way of giving mana to Golem:

Unit - Set mana of (Picked unit) to ((Percentage mana of (Picked unit)) + 5)

This would make it so that with one golem, every 20 kills results in a level up. The previous method was based on level of creep, and level of Flesh Golem. While it's more complex, it has flaws. It adds poor amount of mana at first, then starts adding a shitload later in the game. Of course, please recommend your ideas for this.

[Guest Sancdar]

What's the max level of a Flesh Golem?

[Karawasa]

30 level ups so +300% damage.

[Guest Sancdar]

Set flesh_xp_share = (1.1 - 0.1*(Number of units in (Units within Flesh_Golem_XP_radius of (Position of (Dying unit)) matching ((Level of Flesh Growth for (Matching unit)) Greater than 0))))

This way, 10 golems would still give you only 10% of XP. However, having two would not hurt as much as 1/#. I realize that you are limited to 10 golems this way. Any other ideas out there for this?

Not only are you limited to 10, going over 6 or under 3 would be pretty dumb.

Way of giving mana to Golem:

Unit - Set mana of (Picked unit) to ((Percentage mana of (Picked unit)) + 5)

This would make it so that with one golem, every 20 kills results in a level up. The previous method was based on level of creep, and level of Flesh Golem. While it's more complex, it has flaws. It adds poor amount of mana at first, then starts adding a shitload later in the game. Of course, please recommend your ideas for this.

...which is kind of fair, really, as long as the towers are still semi-okay compared to other damage towers early on when they are built.

[Guest mrchak]

So if you build a flesh golem late in the game, basically you're screwed because it will never get 20 kills.

[Karawasa]

Sancdar explain why going over 6 would be dumb? 1.1 - 0.6 = 0.5 which is still better than 1/6.

As for how to add mana, I didn't give it much thought I admit. Thanks for setting me straight. I would like to tweak the formula then, I think they are too poor at first and too good later on.

[Guest mrchak]

Flesh golem - I think there's 2 rebalances going on:

1. Start with more damage, less damage increase each level (thats easy enough to do)

2. Redo the methodology of flesh golem XP gain.

Rather than count flesh Golem KILLS, how about count flesh golem DAMAGE DEALT? Each time the flesh golem damages an organic unit, it can gain some XP? What do you think? This way a flesh golem grows just as fast in level 15 as it does in level 60... so if you built 10 of them level 50 or so, they don't just sit there because they can't kill anything. They can always damage, and it makese sense to me that they gain xp for damaging (they feast on the blood or flesh or whatever)

[Cisz]

I think they are too poor at first and too good later on.

I agree that they start out to weak, but good later on? The have a bad damage type and don't splash, so I don't use them outside of rnd. And on rnd I consider myself a lost cause, if the best I can come up with is flesh golem. (And on sr I still win, that is, all others die even faster with golems. )

Has anybody an example of owning the map with fleshies?

[Guest Sancdar]

Yeah, I've done it before. Regular fleshies can't win (at least not easily), you have to land level 2 or you're screwed. I'd get a replay for you, but unfortunately I just moved and my regular computer is packed away!

Sancdar explain why going over 6 would be dumb? 1.1 - 0.6 = 0.5 which is still better than 1/6.

To my understanding, XP is given by multiplying the XP earned for a kill by the flesh_xp_share value and giving that to each of your fleshies.

Tower #   flesh_xp_share  Total XP multiplier
    1                 1.0                   1.0
    2                 0.9                   1.8
    3                 0.8                   2.4
    4                 0.7                   2.8
    5                 0.6                   3.0
    6                 0.5                   3.0
    7                 0.4                   2.8
    8                 0.3                   2.4
    9                 0.2                   1.8
   10                 0.1                   1.0

So, the efficiency of the fleshies at garnering XP peaks at 5/6 towers, and drops after that. Seven towers or even eight could be viable if you're afraid of other towers last-hitting too often, but it isn't really necessary. However, if xp required to level is constant rather than exponential, and xp gained from kills is constant rather than exponential, it is always better to have the higher number of towers that produces a specific XP gain efficiency value rather than the lower, because you're more likely to have a lower amount of overkill damage.

[Karawasa]

I like the idea of it being based off damage dealt, and not simply creeps dying in the area. Any suggestions on how to handle the getting and sharing of XP (specifics)?

[Guest mrchak]

If its simply a matter of damage dealt, sharing xp is not an issue any more. multiple flesh golems each earn their own XP by attacking. they can attack the same or different, it won't matter.

It should just be a constant amount per attack, otherwise they will get more XP for attacks as their damage is greater.

And if it lands a kill, it can get 2x XP for that attack.

[Karawasa]

If its simply a matter of damage dealt, sharing xp is not an issue any more. multiple flesh golems each earn their own XP by attacking. they can attack the same or different, it won't matter.

It should just be a constant amount per attack, otherwise they will get more XP for attacks as their damage is greater.

And if it lands a kill, it can get 2x XP for that attack.

So, we need to determine how many "attacks," should lead to a level up.

Also, I disagree with a constant amount. I think it should be based off damage, it would be good for two reasons. First, you can buff your tower to make it grow faster (strategy). Second, it should grow at a faster rate as the game goes on, starts slow and shitty, gets fast and good later.

As a result, we really need to determine how much damage needs to be dealt to level up. Think about it in terms of base damage, how many times should the dude attack at the start for his first level up?

[Guest mrchak]

Ok, I can dig it, in a sense its strength will grow in an exponential rate (the mode damage it does, the less hits it will do, level up faster, so it can do more damage, etc etc.

Lets say the ability has 30 levels. You can build the tower when you have the three elements, lets suppose, at level 20 or so. So at the beginning, it should go up in level once every 2 rounds. Lets say its mana bar is changed to 1000, rather than 100.

So their base damage is 2000 right? Lets say 1/50 their damage is converted to XP. So at the beginning, each attack gives them 40 Xp. So it takes 25 attacks to go up a level.

If this is how it works, the amount of attacks to level up (unsupported) would look something like this:

Level    Dmg    XP    # hits
1     2,000      40      25 
2     2,200      44      23 
3     2,400      48      21 
4     2,600      52      19 
5     2,800      56      18 
6     3,000      60      17 
7     3,200      64      16 
8     3,400      68      15 
9     3,600      72      14 
10     3,800      76      13 
11     4,000      80      13 
12     4,200      84      12 
13     4,400      88      11 
14     4,600      92      11 
15     4,800      96      10 
16     5,000      100      10 
17     5,200      104      10 
18     5,400      108      9 
19     5,600      112      9 
20     5,800      116      9 
21     6,000      120      8 
22     6,200      124      8 
23     6,400      128      8 
24     6,600      132      8 
25     6,800      136      7 
26     7,000      140      7 
27     7,200      144      7 
28     7,400      148      7 
29     7,600      152      7

(I may have the levels off a little bit, I don't remember if it starts at level 0 or 1... but you get the idea I think)

And of course, you can enchant them to give them a boost to XP. Do you think that works? You can mess around with the numbers a little bit.

I'd have to see it in practice to decide if it works or not, my gut tells me it will probably work ok, I think it would be an improvement over the current, just the numbers might have to be played with a little bit.

[0rb3r]

Don't forget that if you base it on damage, VE players would have a disadvantage vs. VH players, as your fleshie would grow much more on harder difficulties.

Anyways, I like the idea that the tower starts with limited strenght and grows very strong later time (it's a growth tower at least!); I also like it that even if you build some fleshies later time, they still can make themselfs useful.

Shared Damage based xp is an excellent idea imo, but it would sacrifice the usefullness of the tower if you get it later time in random mode (build them on level 50, and they wont get more then 200 hits till game end, and stay with a ridiculous damage of maximum 4000). If you do it this way the tower should need some kind of secondary effect skill (crippling single targets?) to be still useful.

[Guest Sancdar]

The reason why fleshies are viable currently is because of the exponential xp system. While high-level fleshies don't grow that fast at all, you can build a new one and expect it to catch up within a couple levels.

[Guest mrchak]

The reason why fleshies are viable currently is because of the exponential xp system. While high-level fleshies don't grow that fast at all, you can build a new one and expect it to catch up within a couple levels.

I agree, but its a worthwhile exercise to consider another option, test it and see if it is better. Both methods have their good points.

[Guest Sancdar]

Yeah...the good point of the old method is that you can build them late-game if you want and have them not suck. The good point of your method is that then they become useless if you don't build them really early? I don't think that's an improvement.

[Guest mrchak]

I mean the new method doesn't have xp share complications. Each one levels up by attacking.

It could be made simpler though; the XP they get for their attack is dependent on the level of the ability and the level of the attacked (organic) unit.

So if the golem is level 1 and attacks (i.e. does damage to) a unit of level 40, it will get more experience than a lv 20 golem that attacks the same unit.

This could be the best of both worlds.

Anybody ever play Shining Force? Thats sortof how xp is figured in that game, per attack.