electronX
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Posts posted by electronX
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I have written which towers I like nerfed/buffed and so, but I like to keep it in the thread i started the project in, and don't wanna double-post it"You are not authorised to read this forum."
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i.e. it was never 350 AoE for full damage. That belief comes from the misleading way I wrote the information in the tooltips.Well, I didn't base this information on tooltips, but my personal experience both in 3.0 and 4.0, up to PB. Simply, when the earth tower attacked, many creeps (in corners even like 5) got reduced by pretty much the same amount. You're right, it wasn't 100% on the whole AoE, but very close to that. I may be wrong, so next time I roll an Earth in PB or 3.0 I'll simply (not) hold Alt
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Statement: Earth is too nerfed down.
In short, on level 5, 2 super cannons did well, on level 6, 3 basic earth towers failed.
Even later when I built earth towers, they had terrible damage. Say, the level 3 damage (middle one) had officially 625 damage for 1000 gold, while the mushroom had 1500 for 500 gold. Earth is spread, mushroom is buffed, still it's significant.
According to the change log:
First, Earth's base damage has been nerfed (officially).
Second, Earth's splash damage has been nerfed (officially) significantly.
I said: significantly.
Earlier Earth's damage was 100% in some AoE. Now it is 50%, according to the change log.
In numbers, we earlier had 2x AoE with 2 dmg, sum damage is 8*pi, while now we have 1x AoE with (less than) 2 dmg and 2x AoE with 1 dmg, excluding the inner zone, which equals 4*pi + 1*pi = 5*pi, so already with this change, Earth's damage is reduced to 62,5%.
With another calculation, earlier we had 5 creeps damaged by 2 = 10, now we have 1 creep damaged by 2, 2 creeps by 1 and 2 creeps with either 1 or 2, 60-80%.
Now that I calculated while wrote it down, I see why is it so crap.
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On its own, I'm fine with composite. It "only" requires 33% more towers than the other levels. So, it just means for lazy players (like me) that build time is composite time, than two levels of watching comes, as that is somewhat overpowered. (I actually do sell, but when I build I try to build a bit of everything and selling is sometimes more confusing than the good positioning.)
The hard thing is the composite + ability levels. Level 19 is still playable as early levels are a cakewalk, so it still goes. May be a problem in competition, though. Later on, these levels guarantee leaking, but not way too much. This is only a problem when Life tower is not rolled.
After many PB games, this was my first new-beta, where instead of 50-60 I only got till 40. Also because I was a bit slow, trying new towers, and other overnerfing problems. Build: EIDNWEN, random.
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It must be pretty hard to measure build strength. For instance, take kindle. It can even do 1800 dps (position 5) as well as 4-500 (position 5 / 3).
Or, what about AoE slows? By slowing the creeps, there is more time to compete.
Anyway, I agree in one thing: it may be possible to construct a solution where each build is capable of clearing the creeps at the same point (say, exit) exactly. Say, slowing builds have less dps but have somewhat more time.
BUT.
What if you mix a slowing build with a DPS one? What if you mix slowing builds with buffing ones? (Blacksmith + Hurricane) What if you put everything together?
As long as effects stack you *must* be better. Not because of the individual towers but because of the buffs / debuffs and the ability to have many answers. Say, kindle to start, good dps to execute and some strong ranged one to finish off the evaders.
For buff towers, this can be limited: since they buff 4 towers, with 0 damage they are always balanced. However, they can not only buff duals, but also triples, everything until pures. The bonus is pretty different, while the cost is still 500.
The same goes for debuffs.
So, when having a completed 2222, or maybe earlier, it seems better to finish it to 222211. Or, as somebody said, 3322 must have the equal strength - at the same price! Increase all towers' damage by 25% for 500 gold and such.
And, yes, buy 25% of a pure for 500 gold = buy a pure for 2000 gold (it costs 20.000 atm).
I wouldn't accept this project so far.
One more thing: *all* good RTS players know that capturing enemy technology is better than just investing our own. WarCraft lacks this feature, except the undead: imagine cheap orc warriors with night elf hunters' support, healed by high elf priests. Blizzard decided to *not* allow this - I know of the undead, but worker stealing is rarely achieved.
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Well, I think the main idea behind requesting shorter mode & extra levels is, that players (me too) find these 11 picks usually low. Count the number of topics related to this issue: pick at every 3-4 levels, 80 levels, extra random picks at every X levels, whatever.
The game does NOT have to be longer, but shorter. However, some more fun should be added. Great, we have tons of towers which are pretty unavailable, only twice in our game life. (Say, level 3 duals. I'm sure I've built not more than about 5 of those... 15 variations.)
So, I think Short mode is (for me) much more about avoiding the starting boredom* and I'm content with it; however, I'd gladly accept some more levels in exchange!
* I think these levels are pretty much viable with a building script bot.
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Hello!
I hope players still play EleTD.
Well, I've bought W3 today, and am looking for some games on Northrend.
When are you, players, online?
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No tower costs wood to build, some (the pures and the periodics) cost pure essence. You get 2 essence for free (after wave 51 and 56) and can buy more for wood if you have an element on level 3 (any one element will do).Can't I build an essence after wave 35 if I have all the elements? Hm. Would be sad.
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My desktop PC isn't waking up from sleep mode, too. Can only reset or turn it off with a loooong power push. It's either an XP bug or some hardware issue. I have Via-nVidia chipset.
Google is full with people who say their PCs aren't waking up. It can be turned off or changed to hibernation. That works.
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Well, well, this is the build what I found the very easiest, so I must admit, it must be balanced well. A 100% rebuild friendly build, too. Water, fire, light to catch, aoe, slow, more slow and a pure damager, none of them mana based. It owns.
There is one thing about kindle. It has only 2 spots where it is effective to build, but it owns there. Spot 5, exactly in the middle of the vertical line, line 3 of 5. I build it inside, but an outside one can help. Or putting 4 in, 2.5 and 3.5, what disallows you to have 5 lines, but it doesn't as bad. It can damage - depending on slow - 10 to even 30 units, so the 3750 is not much imbalanced. Maybe some bonus could be added to the later ones, because it's a tower that you won't build much. Lower levels own, anyway. It's pretty fun to build one after level 10 and watch it work until 17 or so. What no other dual can repeat.
The key is in numbers. It is designed for spot 4-5 players, what is definitely wiped out with the increased game difficulties in version 4. Except Cisz quality
and difficulty of normal or below. -
Well, I never play pick
This post was only about the question: Are builds balanced? Some months ago there was a post about asking us to complete all 4-level builds. And I found, some are viable since very good interest can be gained, while some are quite bad when trying to do it, better to leave them where they are.
I should rename the topic RFB, by the way
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Hello!
This week I had holiday and some evening I played eletd4.
I found that the choice of building place 3 is excellent. Sometimes.
(novel start)
If you have water, earth or maybe fire towers, upgraded more rapidly (like picking weiweiwe..), and playing random, it is almost impossible to get defeated. You must really be untalented to do that after watching a replay. Okay, level 60 can be stronger than those pure towers worth 150K cash, but that level is meant to do that. For instance, I had WLF build and I got 200K cash, like never before, playing hard.
In other cases, like the NL build (I really got that once!), it is hard but level 3 life towers can solve the game, so it's possible to finish it.
And there are those "impossible" situations, like magic tower or trickery.
I found, that there are towers (and builds) that are "rebuild friendly". It means that you can sell any tower and rebuild it asap, like the cannons at the beginning. Water, Earth, Fire, Kindle, and some more. These towers are - what a finding - almost all AoE towers, have no mana and do little damage at once. You can even mass these towers efficiently, if you only have level 1 elements around level 50.
There are other towers, like magic. If you build it, it starts with low mana, so you should build it some seconds before the wave arrives. Otherwise it'll be ineffective. The same goes for trickery. If you build Magic in groups, it will simply not work. All the attacks will go for the same (first) creep, mana down, mass leak. 3 magics can leak at build place 3, when one at 9 and at 3 could do the job easily.
Or, there is the wn-fe build. Has some good towers but is balanced to be buffed. Would be, but if you sell, buffs are gone.
(novel end)
Consequence: in case of some builds, like FLW, I can rebuild until level 40-50 with ease, have 200K networth at the end. In case of other builds, I can't rebuild that 10 kind of towers that must be positioned all around 89632+5, so I only rebuild 1-2 towers, then have a maximum of 100K networth but rather die around 50-55.
Is it a problem? Can it be solved? Does it have to be? What do you think?
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Hello!
The builder has an "ability" that allows him to list all the towers that are available.
It is generally good for new players to a version, otherwise not, because simply clicking F8-B shows the elements and it is easier to combine them.
Later on (from 4 elements available) these towers tend to be too much, so this listing is almost worthless.But there is a case, namely random mode, where it would be useful to use this again: for level 2 towers. I mean, 22 and 222. Or even 33.
I have two solutions to this idea:a) When listing the towers the way it is now, append a "level X" after it, so players can catch higher level towers.
Have 2 or even 3 abilities, which only lists towers available at tier 2 or higher.It would help a lot around level 55 when you get your last level 2 element, you have say FWLN in 2, but don't know which one you have to build. In EleTD3 by building a 2 or 22 tower it was possible, because the available combos had shown up.
Thanks in advance!
p.s: The kindle sound is very annoying, I don't use the tower since PB.
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In beta8, I saw the following:
- Pure nature $20K has a damage of 125K, dealt more often but for single target
- Periodic $16K has a damage of 100K, dealt to 1-5 target with normal speed.
Either Nature is weak or the periodic is strong.
I also don't like that pure towers cost $20K while the periodic is cheaper. In no-sell games it's way easier to build periodic. And it is also strong against composite levels.
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Hi there!
I know there are a lot of selections at the beginning. But I have a new one, please consider it and if it seems to be good, I would be happy to see it in beta 10
Generally, the case now is:
Tier 1 (all 6) is slower, maybe easier, though your towers cost more, you have more interest ticks as well.
Tier 3 (3 of them) is the fastest; higher levels have a good price in terms of efficiency (5x damage for 4x price), but you must overbuild because creeps are running faster and you have to shot more at the same moment.
General random mode means, that you can have tier 1, 2 or 3, and you don't know, which is going to happen. You may either have a relaxing hour or a fast paced workworkwork of 40-50 minutes with a high probability of death.
So I think, it would be good to select, which type of random do you want. If I would implement it on a dialog (which is unavailable), I would do it so:
[x] I want interest picks (A)
[x] I want pures (
(o) I want all the elements as soon as possible (prefer level 1) ©
(o) I want as much level 2 as possible (D)
(o) I want as much level 3 as possible (E)
So, two checkboxes and a radio group.
In the menus, only radio groups are possible, except single player mode, where I can even have 100 selections, but we try to reduce their number.
Therefore, I think B and E go strongly together, namely B contains E, but not the inverse. (Say you want level 3 duals, then you prefer simple elements instead of pures.)
I also think that D and E disprefers interest, because you want elements in both cases - picking interest means that you can have less level 2/3.
So, the following radio list seems to fit:
(o) I want an easy game (A)
(o) I want level 2 elements (
(o) I want level 3 elements ©
(o) I want pures (D)
(o) I want full random / I don't care (E)
How should they work?
A: all level 1 elementals have a high probability, and until level X (say 30), up to two picks, interest has, too. Then it goes either B or D.
B: interest is disclosed and level 3 has a very low chance. Then in 11 picks you have either all the 6 or at least one level 3.
C: interest is disclosed and after getting 3, 4, 5 elements, the chance of the remaining elements is greatly reduced. It can also be hardcoded to be 4 element build, so if 4 elements are available then pick one of those.
D: tend to either give all 6 or level 3 and at least one more pure essence, or even 2.
E: just have an algorythm you want.
I know that ABCD aren't as much "random" as E. So the 75%-100% problem exists. Especially in case of A, because it' 99% that you'll have all the elements. It should be discussed, what do you think about it.
Why #1: A is easier then B, B then C, but E is a surprise. It means you can have a strategy.
Why #2: In EleTD, having more elements mean you have a much wider variety of towers, namely stocking slow, armor reduction, etc. Just imagine, what happens if you have 5 elements but light. You're strongly waiting for the dawn, aren't you? Storm, Nova, Ice, Money, Electricity. But all other elements can have their beloved towers, too.
How to implement single?
Single means that either the host chooses or there is one player.
Instead of the current list, display these (with option Pick, of course).
How to implement multi?
If any same-random criterion is available, then it should be E (as it is now).
If players have their own random modes (all-random or me-random), then they should be asked for their specific. Maybe with a message when you type -random or when the menu choses it to you: "if you want another random mode, type -random1, -random2, -random3, -randomP or -random".
I think this idea is good
but can have some weaker points, so feel free to express your opinions, ideas according to it.Thank you for reading
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its nice to have the variance cause then people learning the map can slowly progress without taking drastic jumpsI also vote for stay. In v3 as well as in v4.
Normal: closing networth around 130-170K, free cash 50-100K (the more elements and early, the less spend is required)
Very hard: tendency to die around level 35-55, depends on the level, though I didn't try it in the last 2-3 weeks (I gave up).
This time I want to go "hard".
If VH remained the same, then - in this distribution - the game would either be boring or angering. But going hard seems to be a good option!
Now it's with v4, but a year ago I played exactly the same situation with v3.
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voting ssytem has changed for 4.0 so this wont be a problem ever
I don't admit it.
What if somebody wants to play 3.0 in the future, too? 4.0 is so much different that I wouldn't call it an improvement alone.
So, generally I would like to see 3.1 in the close future after the higher prioritised 4.0 is out. Just as a bugfix release, maybe with some really must-to-do balance issues. Or even more, but I don't believe that anybody wants to develop it.
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One more small comparison, supporting that well > blacksmith.
Just take an example: we have round X, creep hp is 1000. You have a tower, it does 500-799 damage after armor, etc.
Let's use well first. What will happen? Your tower fires more often, so you finish them off faster. Nothing else.
Let's use blacksmith. Your tower will do 625-999 damage, so you need 2 shots. In fact, no change is noticed.
It's absolutely general, it's the cause of many losses produced by overupgrading (visualize one single pure darkness on level 1... would leak, wouln't it?). I learnt it when I tried the magic in 3.0 and as soon as I upgraded them to level 2 I died. Yep, they have shot, creep hp was around 2000, and I wasted the ability. This is the same.
So, if you have tons of small towers (or, more precisely, shots), well and blacksmith tends to the same results, but if you have fewer big towers, they tend to be completely different. Visualize a 3D graph where well has a constant percentage of 25% and blacksmith have a curve starting at 0% and tending slowly to 25% as creep hp grows and shot damage decreases.
It's nothing to do about it except buffing blacksmith a very little bit, but it won't really change the fact.
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Hello!
I post my opinions in this topic.
First of all: the game is developing in a very good direction! Nice to see this.
I can't say much about balancing, I usually lose this game even on normal, so I'm a loser in this aspect
General idea: I think most builds should have composite damagers. I usually receive 3 element builds in random, and it's very nice when I have a lot of good towers, most of them fire, and the round is water. Or, electricity seems to be light*, FLW fights earth.
* Darkness levels were gone fast, earth were bad. But I'm not sure.
Short mode 1 (3 instant picks): I also vote for some more starting time for short mode.
Short mode 2 (leaking starts next round): This game mode is very tricky, sometimes annoying, but in some cases good, especially if I want some challenge. For example, if I want to simulate online play while playing alone. So, if possible, I vote this for a game mode.
Short mode 3 (level 1 towes available): I had the idea some weeks ago, that all of the level 1 elemental towers ($50) should be available already at the start. They doesn't make much sense in case of the first levels (composite). Or, another idea is the complete removal of these towers. Who is using them, except newbies? Cannons/arrows prove better, they are learnable, upgradable to elementals, and when you start to ignore them (around level 15-25), level 1 elemental towers are way too weak. (Weaker than super composites.) So, what if elemental towers would start at $225?
Trickery: This is somewhat useless now. Level 1 trickery can clone a level 1 dual and a level 3 elemental, but level 1 triples cost more (3.03x). What if they would be mana based? They could copy or change, it doesn't matter, but the idea (not balanced): level 1 is 1 mana/sec, level 2 is 5, level 3 is 25. Cloning cost is the target price divided by a constant amount. (This is better then inverting, because you can learn, that a cannon costs 10 mana, and it's the same at all levels.) Mana capacity could be different for these towers, but I think level 1 should be able to clone a pure. You should just wait price / divisor / manaspeed seconds. If the tower starts up with a low amount of mana (zero), then it could be sold instantly, unlike the current (which you cannot replace if you don't need it!).
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uhm . i think that counts as leaking info about version 4??he means in version 3.0
Good point, post edited.
1mpulse, Karawasa: sorry
I use the "posts since last logon" feature and didn't see these aren't those forums -
Does anybody actually use the all-element tower?I've never heard it being spoken of, or used in replays.. Or in actual games as a matter of fact.
Yes, once it happened to me.
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I am open to other suggestions, if you have an idea on how to better balance the game (without making VH any less difficult) let me know.I think the 30 spawn, 70 starting gold would be good. This way you have the same gold, but it's easier. The only problem is, that while it removes the healing wave problem, introduces a new one: what if I'm a pro but play ve? I have an advantage (I will spam the others).
Addressing the healing waves problem can help, too. So that their healing rate is balanced by that 48-61-74-87-100% as well. I was really close to enjoy my normal or very easy game - except the fact that I had to wait 20 seconds between rounds -, but those late-game healing waves tended to leak 30 of 30
I managed to reach level 50 or even more, but then died very fast.@Sancdar: I know that it's beatable. I saw one single replay, where Cisz did that. With work for what I have to be paid
As for now, I have accepted that I won't win it, only with luck (=such a set of elements that results in the ability of building such towers that allow me to handle the hardest levels, which otherwise mass leak).@0rb3r: Thanks for these words. Does it mean, that claiming I'm 'good' (not 'pro') is an illusion, even while beating 90%+ of vh games?
By the way, Kara said he made later levels harder. Don't know, by how much, but if this amount would be a little bit lowered... Or it can happen that this amount isn't too much alone but the introduction of 75% composite damage, ~75% mech damage (they are 3/12 immune), more rapid healing, so this alltogether can mean that we have only a little bit over the line, and 1% change in all these stats could make the game easier enough. I would really be happy to test it, but I can't...@Kara: although I'm long
I'm supporting your work on this hard but really beautiful game!Idea: it would be good to test the game on very different machine configurations. Or, if a bug is present, reporters should write the config down as well. It's interesting that while some are crying sad, I really didn't experience the undead bug in 20 games (beta4), even in cases that were noted (earth towers, for example).
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I don't really find that a game needs to be 'beatable' in order to be considered good.Well, slept since that
Anyway, at least the "no one had the cojones to beat? I'm ashamed..." text should be removed. In eletd3, if you couldn't finish the game after some tries, you were bad, but here you aren't definitely.Playing easy vs. veryhard. Well, if I play easy, aside from the suffering, around level 50 I will have around 5 towers. Very hard is at least good in giving a chance to build some interesting towers (except 222 and 33, which have never ever happened to me... maybe one supernova once).
Btw, we don't have to think the same
You talk about playing it online, when after being the Remaining One it's no fun to continue. I'm talking about playing offline, where you can set goals like doing better, beating a level that was unbeatable before... and seeing those Ronnies with whom Kara so much worked. I will never. And I'm sure, 99% of the players who play this game won't ever see them, nor pure towers and such.So, okay, while eletd3 was beatable and then the Ronnies came, eletd4 is unbeatable but this way provides better differentiating between players mid-game. Like many other TDs. That's a choice
Thank you for replying!
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Kindle stacks ...Well, you mention cloning periodic. I won't ever build one. Please, could you upload 5-10 replays with more people who are achieving better results then me? Testing replays, for example.
I'm too much embittered now to try it anymore... now I also tried and I understand why people use the 1M cheat. Sometimes I tend to decide to leave the beta team, my problem is not solved and it seems it won't be, and the game remains unbeatable, unenjoyable for me. Such a game must be wiped out from my universe, burned, broken, cursed. However, the towers and ideas are so good, that I can't delete it. Yet.
Like the girl you love but she hates you. Even when she leaves, you have her picture.
I should forget eletd4, should I?
[Beta 13] Again: Make randoom a bit nicer
in WarCraft 3
Posted
In my opinion, interest is...
... terrible for new players, as they build their whole money.
... excellent for medium players when playing offline - position 3-6-9 long pass allows lots of money grinding on early levels with a playable amount of selling (i consider interest-selling playable at P3 till level 15-25, depending on the elementals, thereafter I start to be too late with rebuilds).
... terrible for medium players when playing online - as most players can simply spam us (they play P45) either by playing normal level or simply being a pro, we cannot afford unspent gold and so most our interest goes wasted.
... excellent for pros, as they have the skills and practice to sell even mid-level well, so they perform well even while spammed.
Expect a player menu, where each player can choose, which way he wants:
a) boosting interest: each treasure grants the current +0.75%
c) treasure found: each treasure grants an instant money amount, depending on level again, and then it can either be used to build more towers or to be stacked for the current 2%.
The only hard thing is finding the way and amounts where Cisz won't have 1M gold always but it still balances those who chose it
Just an idea, feel free to drop it or use it.