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yoitzhiok

NEW Damage Table

19 posts in this topic

Update 1.1: Fixed some values that were incorrect, added color, added Light vs Nature, added Sorted Lists

Update 1.1.1: Fixed more values that were incorrect. Only accurate until 1.7. Version 1.8's damage is coming soon!

To view the old data (like base attack, multiplier etc, click on the arrow at the top. It's just hidden, not removed)

 

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After 5 days of grueling work, approximately 40 hours later, I may have completed an 99.9% accurate representation of DPS per gold for each tower in the game, factoring abilities, splash, considering different scenarios and possibilities (I'm looking at you Quake).

 

So here it is! Clickity: Damage Table 1.1.1. <<<<< Just to clarify, damage is assumed if creeps don't have special abilities and are walking in a straight line; corners have a 10% possibility of a little higher DPS.

 

PSA: Legend says my data is so raw even cows worship it and learn its ways.

 

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Legend (Look for Row W and X mostly)

Row A: Name of Tower

Row B - K: What one attack from the target hits. Ignore unless you're looking for specifics.

Row M: Range

Row N: AoE

Row O: Base Attack. May be different from the tower's because abilities are factored in (especially if it's easier to calculate by changing this instead of the damage multiplier)

Row P: APS (Attacks per second).. (If you want to calculate BAT, BAT is (1/APS))

Row Q: Single-target damage multiplier. Usually it's 100% unless it's cases like Hail Tower whose crits affect the DPS.

Row R: Single-Target DPS.

Row S: AoE multiplier. Similar to Row Q, except AoE, bounces and other fun stuff are calculated.

Row T: AoE DPS

Row V: Cost of Tower

Row W: Single-target DPS per gold

Row X: Multi-target DPS per gold

Row Y: Comments usually related to the calculation

Row Z: Mind your own business, pal.

 

Much thanks to WindStrike for providing much timely assistance and providing his old data table!

 

Now, for fun facts.

1) If you group 30 mobs into a small AoE, at a whooping 46500% multiplier, resulting in 68.2 DPS / Gold, the highest DPS in the game goes to Vapor Tower!

2) Can't decide on a pure element tower? If you want, at an impressive 8.09 DPS / Gold, Fire takes it home! If you want Single-target oriented towers, at a massive 9.2 DPS / gold, Nature destroys the competition!

3) Support Towers (Well, Blacksmith, Trickery Tower) has the 3rd highest Single-target DPS among the T1 Dual-Elements, 6th if you consider non-pure Mono-Elements (tied with Nature 3 and Jinx 2), and 9th highest Single-target DPS at lvl 3! It's even higher then the Periodic Tower?! Who says Supports can't kill? Too bad we can't support a support, huh?

 

If you spot the 0.01% error on the table, garden gnomes have hacked my computer while I wasn't looking and changed their values. I aplogise on the behalf of my garden gnomes (stay put, Larry! I'm looking at you!). However, please inform me of any discrepancies and errors I may incurred while trying to ward off flying dragons and space monkeys while gathering this data.

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To-do list:

Cleanup...

 

Update Log

9/5/2016: Table 1.1.1 is up! Includes minor fixes to inaccurate data values. Table 1.2 will be up soon!

23/4/2016: Table 1.1 is up! Includes color, a 'Light vs Nature' section, and two other lists sorted out differently. Also, shortened the chart so more important values are shown, while the rest are hidden.

17/4/2016: The rise of the new table!

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Thanks for sharing. 

 

I would appreciate if you could work a bit on the appearance. Highlight the important columns, Freeze first column, use 2 numbers after comma.
Your legend should also be included on a 2. page in the document.

It is always easier to read your own stuff help other people out a little bit : )

 

6 hours ago, yoitzhiok said:

DPS isn't accurate (mostly DoT debuffs like Fire). It should be higher.

Where should it be higher? 
Pure fire Tower is the weakest pure tower. It has the  lowest attackrange/uptime and does a lot of overkill. 


I would be interesting in efficiency of the towers over the whole round.

In my test Light tower is already even with nature tower early on. In the lategame with well tower support Light tower> Nature tower.

 

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I do believe you mean Vapor Tower, not Tidal Tower on the 46500% multiplier, lol. Anyhow, thanks for the chart! If you could color it a bit to help the organization and maybe bring back some of the decimal places so it looks cleaner and easier to read, that'd be awesome. Pinning this! And moving it to the Strategy section to replace mah old sheets.

 

 

By the way, regarding the underwhelming Electricity Tower, we're trying out a fix for next version, which allows its attack to bounce back to the original target. Meaning, if it's shooting at two targets point blank to each other, instead of bouncing once, it'll bounce all 10 times. I ran a test of it, it pretty much fixed the issue with the tower, cause unless it's shooting a solo target, it's consistently bouncing 5+ times, meaning it no longer falls off horribly. Now, it could still theoretically be considered weak according to the public, so I'll let people try this change out next patch, see what the general opinion is, and if it's still weak, we'll try something like you suggested of 5 bounces.

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18 hours ago, Utoko said:

Thanks for sharing. 

 

I would appreciate if you could work a bit on the appearance. Highlight the important columns, Freeze first column, use 2 numbers after comma.
Your legend should also be included on a 2. page in the document.

It is always easier to read your own stuff help other people out a little bit : )

 

Where should it be higher? 
Pure fire Tower is the weakest pure tower. It has the  lowest attackrange/uptime and does a lot of overkill. 


I would be interesting in efficiency of the towers over the whole round.

In my test Light tower is already even with nature tower early on. In the lategame with well tower support Light tower> Nature tower.

 

 

Will work on it as soon as I wake up tomorrow.

 

It's higher because right now in the game, the burn duration supposedly stays for 3 seconds, and it ticks one per second, and thus 3 ticks in total. After extensive testing, it does stay for 3 seconds, but hits for 4 ticks in total. This applies for all other DoT debuffs, as previously stated in PSA2.

 

Light is harder to calculate in general. Because it's a linear growth when hitting a single target, I can only calculate when it equals or is greater than another tower's DPS (Nature 4, Dark 4 etc) on average after X amount of attacks. And that would mean another spreadsheet on its own, testing the DPS of Light vs every other tower (this applies to Quark too). This will be second-priority after decorating the data. In theory though, if you assign 1 Light Tower to each creep, the damage will never drop off until the end of each round.

 

Efficiency is very tricky to calculate, near impossible :/ We're looking at DPS-loss not hitting creeps that are within tower range, as well as DPS-loss while not hitting creeps that are outside the tower range. We'll also have to look at where the towers are calculate total possible creeps around said tower. It also means that 900 ranged towers in theory, should be the most efficient given the small map size we have. That and Vapor / Nova / Quake tower who hits everything around them. 1150+ range towers may seem efficient since it hits the whole map, but it loses out some EP (efficiency points; just a fancy term) by NOT hitting the others. On top of that, 550 range towers seem the most inefficient, but they technically hit 50 or more% creeps that pass by, but once the creeps roll by, they lose all EP.

 

Light seems good because you really can focus on that one target during frog stages, allowing easy 10 stacks on a light tower for massive damage before it dies and switches over.

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7 hours ago, WindStrike said:

I do believe you mean Vapor Tower, not Tidal Tower on the 46500% multiplier, lol. Anyhow, thanks for the chart! If you could color it a bit to help the organization and maybe bring back some of the decimal places so it looks cleaner and easier to read, that'd be awesome. Pinning this! And moving it to the Strategy section to replace mah old sheets.

 

 

By the way, regarding the underwhelming Electricity Tower, we're trying out a fix for next version, which allows its attack to bounce back to the original target. Meaning, if it's shooting at two targets point blank to each other, instead of bouncing once, it'll bounce all 10 times. I ran a test of it, it pretty much fixed the issue with the tower, cause unless it's shooting a solo target, it's consistently bouncing 5+ times, meaning it no longer falls off horribly. Now, it could still theoretically be considered weak according to the public, so I'll let people try this change out next patch, see what the general opinion is, and if it's still weak, we'll try something like you suggested of 5 bounces.

 

Oops. Fixed :P

 

And yeah yeah, will work on crayon-ing the hell outta the data. But I'll definitely keep this Raw Data somewhere on a sheet.

 

Actually, I suggested 15% jump decrease and a 33% buff to damage. I calculated the bounce of 5 (because that seems like the average without slows). And I feel like that change won't really help its case. It needs a damage buff + that.

 

Also, what are your thoughts on the Haste Tower? I can't stand the windup, but once it's going, it's great. I'm looking to decrease the windup speed and BAT, but lower base damage so that DPS difference stays around the same. (Also, there's a fundamental error with it because at max stacks, it shoots slower than at 15 stacks. Just FYI (Parabola curve; it peaks downwards somewhere around 14 - 15)

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11 hours ago, yoitzhiok said:

 

It's higher because right now in the game, the burn duration supposedly stays for 3 seconds, and it ticks one per second, and thus 3 ticks in total. After extensive testing, it does stay for 3 seconds, but hits for 4 ticks in total. This applies for all other DoT debuffs, as previously stated in PSA2.

 

 

I might sound stupid but: Why don't you just add a tick to these towers then in your spreadsheet? Many dots start at 0.0 sec the first tick. 

 

or are you suggesting to nerf all dot towers in the game? Still don't really get it sry

 

11 hours ago, yoitzhiok said:

Light is harder to calculate in general. Because it's a linear growth when hitting a single target, I can only calculate when it equals or is greater than another tower's DPS (Nature 4, Dark 4 etc) on average after X amount of attacks. And that would mean another spreadsheet on its own, testing the DPS of Light vs every other tower (this applies to Quark too). This will be second-priority after decorating the data. In theory though, if you assign 1 Light Tower to each creep, the damage will never drop off until the end of each round.

 

My comparison was more about the range factor in early rounds where you have max 3 hits on a unit

. The ability doesn't factor in much and in this rounds the 6.3 Light tower still manages to get even with the 9.2 Nature tower because of the range factor.

In your theory you assume light tower have global range but they can't hit minions in the corners. Realistically in the middle position around 40 stacks is max. Normally when you micro the Lighttowers you get up to 30 stacks.The average is still lower then 20 stacks in frogwaves 10+

 

11 hours ago, yoitzhiok said:

 

Efficiency is very tricky to calculate, near impossible :/

 

I agree a perfect representation of the efficiency might not be impossible. 
 

but I do a lot of testing for the frog rounds. To test which towers I need in my builds. 

 

range uptime no slows 2 30% slows
roundtime 60sec 90sec
550 55.00% 24.44%
700 71.67% 40.00%
900 75.00% 48.89%
1150 90.00% 61.11%
1500 95.00% 94.44%
Vapor 35.00% 28.89%


      In the early rounds:

  • Nature 9.2 * 71.67% = 6.59.
  • Light 6.7 *95.00% = 6.36

    In the lategame with 4* double slowtowers on the map nature tower can't compete with light tower in any way even without the effects:
     
  • Nature 9.2 * 71.67% = 3.68
  • Light 6.7 *94.45% = 6.33


    note: In random it is sometimes a lot different because you can just rebuild towers in another postion.

     
  • It is not perfect and a little different in different waves/positions but these rough values are close enough to figure out the strongest builds.

    The "
    Can't decide on a pure element tower? " Fun fact is at least only for fun if you don't take these things into consideration in any way.

    Interesting would be helpful facts : p

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5 hours ago, Utoko said:

 

I might sound stupid but: Why don't you just add a tick to these towers then in your spreadsheet? Many dots start at 0.0 sec the first tick. 

 

or are you suggesting to nerf all dot towers in the game? Still don't really get it sry

 

I've assumed tooltip is correct and it's supposed to burn for 3 seconds as intended. I'm definitely suggesting a fix where duration is 2.9 instead of 3 so it doesn't proc the last one. Unless the 4 ticks is intended, put duration as 3.9 and change tooltip description to 4 seconds. I've messaged a few people about this already.

 

5 hours ago, Utoko said:

 

Without slows uptime no slows 2 30% slows
roundtime 60sec 90sec
550 55.00% 24.44%
700 71.67% 40.00%
900 75.00% 48.89%
1150 90.00% 61.11%
1500 95.00% 94.44%
Vapor 35.00% 28.89%


      In the early rounds:

  • Nature 9.2 * 71.67% = 6.59.
  • Light 6.7 *95.00% = 6.36

    In the lategame with 4* double slowtowers on the map nature tower can't compete with light tower in any way even without the effects:
     
  • Nature 9.2 * 71.67% = 3.68
  • Light 6.7 *94.45% = 6.33

 

Nature wouldn't be 9.2 for the second calculation. It's a lot higher considering most of the creeps are lumped together (8+). But hey, interesting table though. May I ask how you got these numbers and what do they actually mean?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Utoko said:

The " Can't decide on a pure element tower? " Fun fact is at least only for fun if you don't take these things into consideration in any way.

Interesting would be helpful facts : p

 

At least the other two are somewhat interesting :P

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Without slows uptime no slows 2 30% slows
roundtime 60sec 90sec
550 55.00% = 33s  24.44% = 22s
700 71.67% = 43s  40.00% = 36s
900 75.00% = 45s 48.89% = 44s
1150 90.00% = 54s 61.11% = 55s
1500 95.00% = 57s 94.44% = 85s
Vapor 35.00% = 21s 28.89% = 26s

 

I think your numbers are wrong though. Why would towers supported with slow towers hit for less time?

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If you don't slow anything the frogs are very spread out but if you slow them with root+Nova or Muck+ Tornado the frogs get really close together .  

 

  • If they are close together towers have less time to hit the units.

 

That is why runic, periodic tower and co. get very strong but single target tower with low range get very weak.

 


The numbers are all right because I just created different setups and measured how long the towers could attack. In different setups you will have a little different numbers of course but the tendency will always be the same.


 

 

 

I tested the towers in 3 Setups:

 

  1. No Slows
  2. 4 root 2+ 4 nova2
  3. 4 Muck+ 4 Tornado 

 

  • I measured the full round time.
  • I placed the Towers in good positions and took the time how many seconds they attacked.


I do a bunch of random test but most is way less presentable than your spreadsheet.

 

Quote

Nature wouldn't be 9.2 for the second calculation. It's a lot higher considering most of the creeps are lumped together (8+). But hey, interesting table though. May I ask how you got these numbers and what do they actually mean?



That is true but at the time you have 8 + slow-towers you are in the Frog waves->. The Light towers are also getting up to 20+ stacks.


 

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1 hour ago, yoitzhiok said:

 

I've assumed tooltip is correct and it's supposed to burn for 3 seconds as intended. I'm definitely suggesting a fix where duration is 2.9 instead of 3 so it doesn't proc the last one. Unless the 4 ticks is intended, put duration as 3.9 and change tooltip description to 4 seconds. I've messaged a few people about this already.

 

 

 

but would the dot not be over after 2 sec then`? after that your target burns for 0.9 seconds without taking any damage.  

 

Both options are not very clean in my eyes.

 

 

 

e: There are a some dots in dota which start at 0.0 like (Frostbite, Sandstorm) they all don't trigger the last tick but they have all at least 0.5 sec procs which seems cleaner. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 17.4.2016 at 1:03 PM, Utoko said:

In my test Light tower is already even with nature tower early on. In the lategame with well tower support Light tower> Nature tower.
 

I dont think its possible to compare light and nature tower in the lategame that easily since pretty much every build contains slow towers which increase natures damage alot and most of all debuff towers which all have a short attack/cast range and low debuff time.

 

Thats alot of work and alot of interesting information, especially the dps per gold. Nice work.

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14 minutes ago, ArthurDent said:

I dont think its possible to compare light and nature tower in the lategame that easily since pretty much every build contains slow towers which increase natures damage alot and most of all debuff towers which all have a short attack/cast range and low debuff time.

 

Thats alot of work and alot of interesting information, especially the dps per gold. Nice work.

 

 

All the debuff towers and supporttowers effect both the Lighttower and the Nature tower the same.(Well tower-> Light tower more)

So I don't see how that plays any role.

In any slow build you build your debuff towers around the map anyway because you cant fit 170k+ or 250k+(random) in one position on your map. 

 

Feel free to test it and just show me a slow build setup where nature tower beats out Light tower.

 

 

On top of that it was just a random example of 2 towers.

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57 minutes ago, Utoko said:

 

 

All the debuff towers and supporttowers effect both the Lighttower and the Nature tower the same.(Well tower-> Light tower more)

So I don't see how that plays any role.

In any slow build you build your debuff towers around the map anyway because you cant fit 170k+ or 250k+(random) in one position on your map. 

 

Feel free to test it and just show me a slow build setup where nature tower beats out Light tower.

 

 

On top of that it was just a random example of 2 towers.

 

I didnt realize this was about slow builds. If you cover the whole map with debuffs, its obviously the same except Jinx Tower second tick.

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Fire Tower actually wasn't intended to hit for 4 ticks, but seeing as it's considered largely underwhelming, that doesn't actually bother me. We miiight be simplifying its effect down some, dunno if it's gonna happen next patch or not, cause it's really a lame-man's Flame Tower. If not simplifying it, then we'll do some damage bumping. All the abilities are intended to be minor abilities that just help fix the tower's weaknesses/synergies. That's the case for Dark, Light, & Nature, but the other three we have are kinda... arbitrarily tacked on. I'd vouch for them not to really bother having minor abilities cause they all have different Range & AoE, buuut someone on the team absolutely insisted otherwise.

 

Regarding Light Tower & Nature Tower. It doesn't surprise me that Light Tower, with slow-killing builds, will deal more damage than Nature Tower, the issue with that is the caveat of speed.... which totally doesn't make a difference in current meta and I'm hopin' to try and fix that next patch...... maybe. In the Frog Waves, it'll probably deal more damage overall given it can hit the whole maze. That doesn't bother me because to me, Nature Tower is much more of a bursty finishing tower. For speedier builds or acting just as a finisher, Nature Tower > Light Tower. For sheer, but slow, damage output, Light Tower > Nature Tower.

 

And then there's the case of "microing = more damage output = Light > Nature for sure". Yes, that's true, but... if at all possible, I'd prefer to avoid balancing around that, because 99% of the playerbase doesn't micro their towers. If anything, I'd like to find way to alter and improve the game that makes the game more about strategy, timing, and placement, not microing and APM.

 

 

For Haste Towers, these.... I just don't get. They just fall off late-game despite their insane DPS/Gold Value, even if you get them set-up so the wind-up isn't really a problem. I'm not sure if reducing the wind-up and dropping its DPS would fix it, but I'm also generally reluctant to buff it cause early-midgame, they frigin' rock. It was a weird issue in the SC2 Version as well.

 

 

By the way, you guys know that you can quote multiple responses in one post rather than double or triple-posting, lol.

 

 

EDIT: A little hotfix patch was applied today, mainly fixing up some localization and naming stuff. In that patch, Electricity can now bounce back to the same target multiple times, so try it out, lemme know if it's still a little too weak or not. While we're at it, one tower I've received literally 0 feedback on is Hydro Tower and am curious to hear if it needs buffing or not.

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1 hour ago, WindStrike said:

By the way, you guys know that you can quote multiple responses in one post rather than double or triple-posting, lol.

 

But I want forum posts count kappa. My excuse is that I forgot about something and wanted to edit, and the 'Edit' button on forum doesn't let me -- oh I'm dumb. I see the quote button now.

 

1 hour ago, WindStrike said:

Fire Tower actually wasn't intended to hit for 4 ticks, but seeing as it's considered largely underwhelming, that doesn't actually bother me. We miiight be simplifying its effect down some, dunno if it's gonna happen next patch or not, cause it's really a lame-man's Flame Tower. If not simplifying it, then we'll do some damage bumping. All the abilities are intended to be minor abilities that just help fix the tower's weaknesses/synergies. That's the case for Dark, Light, & Nature, but the other three we have are kinda... arbitrarily tacked on. I'd vouch for them not to really bother having minor abilities cause they all have different Range & AoE, buuut someone on the team absolutely insisted otherwise.

 

Regarding Light Tower & Nature Tower. It doesn't surprise me that Light Tower, with slow-killing builds, will deal more damage than Nature Tower, the issue with that is the caveat of speed.... which totally doesn't make a difference in current meta and I'm hopin' to try and fix that next patch...... maybe. In the Frog Waves, it'll probably deal more damage overall given it can hit the whole maze. That doesn't bother me because to me, Nature Tower is much more of a bursty finishing tower. For speedier builds or acting just as a finisher, Nature Tower > Light Tower. For sheer, but slow, damage output, Light Tower > Nature Tower.

 

And then there's the case of "microing = more damage output = Light > Nature for sure". Yes, that's true, but... if at all possible, I'd prefer to avoid balancing around that, because 99% of the playerbase doesn't micro their towers. If anything, I'd like to find way to alter and improve the game that makes the game more about strategy, timing, and placement, not microing and APM.

 

 

For Haste Towers, these.... I just don't get. They just fall off late-game despite their insane DPS/Gold Value, even if you get them set-up so the wind-up isn't really a problem. I'm not sure if reducing the wind-up and dropping its DPS would fix it, but I'm also generally reluctant to buff it cause early-midgame, they frigin' rock. It was a weird issue in the SC2 Version as well.

 

 

By the way, you guys know that you can quote multiple responses in one post rather than double or triple-posting, lol.

 

 

EDIT: A little hotfix patch was applied today, mainly fixing up some localization and naming stuff. In that patch, Electricity can now bounce back to the same target multiple times, so try it out, lemme know if it's still a little too weak or not. While we're at it, one tower I've received literally 0 feedback on is Hydro Tower and am curious to hear if it needs buffing or not.

 

Too lazy to select the parts to quote, so I'll just cover everything from top to bottom.

 

Fire has similar AoE DPS to Ice Tower, which consists of more popular elements (Water and Light). That makes Fire 4 very underused (not to mention to the tower it builds into aren't too popular either). The tower's targeting function makes it so it'll hit the creep near the end of the tower range for about 4 - 5 times. I could suggest lowering its range but increasing its Attacks/Second. It definitely feels like a 'lame-man's Flame Tower'. The other 'lame-man's tower' is Poison Tower, -- an overglorified Cannon Tower-- although I've climbed top 150 with it.

 

Frankly, the DPS of Nature Tower 4 and Light Tower 4 should act exactly as what you mentioned. However, given Nature's ability, it prefers to bottleneck creeps rather then slow the entire wave down, much like Vapor Tower. Its purpose should be different (bottle-necking is a little tough, but definitely doable; gonna test later tonight). If so, Light will not be able to out-DPS Nature at all. And if creeps are bottle-necked, why not just use Vapor to get rid of them all at once, and leave the few at the end to something like Dark 4? WAY more efficient.

 

In short, Nature needs a small-rework. Every four hits does AoE damage?

 

Haste doesn't have insane DPS, actually. It takes 10 seconds to windup from 1 DPS/Gold to 5 DPS/Gold. That means in that average of time, it's 2.5 DPS/gold, which increases exponentially until it approaches 5DPS/gold, but it'll never be worth 5DPS/gold. A good 20 second throw duration, I estimate, is about 4 DPS/gold worth on average? And to leave it firing for 20 seconds AND more, slowing towers are required, which begs the question, "Why not just use Nature (since it's part of it)?" It has higher DPS and no charge time AND an ability that works well in slow builds. I looked over my proposal, and it takes 5.5 seconds to windup to 4.5 DPS/gold, so on average, it should also be about 4 DPS/gold, but only around the 10 second mark.

 

One option is to give it in active that lasts X duration. During that time, it's fast as hell, but after, it's slow.

 

Hydro is weird. The active only hits after a second, which hits the target behind it. I've seen people use it; I've used it, and it's a decent form of AoE damage. I can't, however, compete with Poison Tower. I would say buff.

 

will look at my old-love Electricity now

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Also, I will create another thread discussing Nature Vs Light after I'm done with calculations, so as for now, hold all reservations regarding these two.

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