Beta 4 HARD

[Guest Arbite]

Is it just me or is th 4.0 beta 4 so damn hard, i used to get to ronald on 3.0 on very hard, but on 4.0 i cant get past level 41.

[Guest 1mpulse]

technically thats a good thing

[Guest GkJ-mo]

the main issue (for me) is that you have to relearn every single tower and cant do your solid sell/rebuild on the levels >15 because i dont know yet, what towers to use when

[Guest 1mpulse]

once all the towers are figured out and strategies are formed it will get better

[Guest CptnWaffles]

I can easily and consistently get to level 35 on Very Hard mode with a very simple tactic except that the Shadow Wolves that can heal destroy me every time. Their knack for healing shrugs off any AoE as useless and even the single target towers have problems bringing them down. I went from 28 lives to 0 once just because they ran through multiple times. Either the healing on these guys is way too high or there's an easier way to do this. I do a little better when I tell my towers to all target the same thing, but this takes time that I'd rather spend building or upgrading more.

[Guest Sancdar]

The various light towers were working well for me there - the teleporting one pretty much destroys the wolves.

[electronX]

The various light towers were working well for me there - the teleporting one pretty much destroys the wolves.

However, it is bad, if any level (even #60) is only beatable if you have some elements. Results in the same "do the same every time" that lfwd-n. For example, with 3.0 if I lose and I have no light or water, I simply say "I was good, but unlucky" instead of "hey, let's try this build once more". But I hope, I just misunderstand you

I have played this only once (now downloaded), and I also got to level 35 on vh, random. I leaked every mech level, the others rarely; I had 18 lives before level 35, all cash spent, mostly earth damage and leaked them. I'll watch the replay to figure it out, just responded

[Guest 1mpulse]

one of the problems with eletd 3 is that almost every slow required water or light, but in the new beta the slowing towers are more spread out.

after alot of balancing the map should be completeable with all -4 element- builds

[Guest Sancdar]

The various light towers were working well for me there - the teleporting one pretty much destroys the wolves.

However, it is bad, if any level (even #60) is only beatable if you have some elements. Results in the same "do the same every time" that lfwd-n. For example, with 3.0 if I lose and I have no light or water, I simply say "I was good, but unlucky" instead of "hey, let's try this build once more". But I hope, I just misunderstand you

I have some trouble but not an overwhelming amount with the wolves - if you can't handle them with other means, pick light.

[Guest 1mpulse]

laser owns them, even though its not finished

[electronX]

laser owns them, even though its not finished

So, if you're playing random and have no light, then accept your death with big smile on your face? (Particularly online, because it will be mixed with spamming.)

So the game should either be:

- no random or chaos at all, and every wave should have a specific tower, with which you can destroy it. easy and hard should differ greatly, perhaps the creep count should be the same, that way easy is easier;

- random and such, and then: balanced.

Why should we play random, if it can't be won that way? Why should we play random with players who will hate this game because they can't complete?

This is even more important because random mode works quite different for me, than in eletd3. In 3 I had 0-1, sometimes 2 or 3 interest picks, usually 4-5 elements. Here I have usually 2 interest picks (5, 15) and I have no more then 3 elements in 5 games until level 35-40. Not a problem at all, just draws back to balancing.

But I believe that it will be corrected some way. For example, in 3.0 you have some tougher waves, but all of them are possible to complete with most builds, and possible to complete with low leak with every build.

[Guest Sancdar]

Level 35, you've got 6 element picks done already - on random, this means (with truly random selection, so a worse chance than in the game) that the odds of not having light are 40% - in reality, I'd say it's probably closer to a third of the time. So, two-thirds of the time you can fairly easily demolish the wave. The other third of the time, you have to build intelligently. Given that it's random, you ought to have enough money to take care of the wave if you build for quick kills or possibly even double-build (build some single-target towers at the front, sell them during the wave and replace them further back). In a small number of instances, you may be stuck with difficult elemental picks - this currently would include having like...just fire and water, since Kindle is broken. If you come up with an elemental combo on random that you think can't beat a certain wave, I'll do my best to refute that or you could submit some balance suggestions on specific towers.

[electronX]

Is it just me or is th 4.0 beta 4 so damn hard, i used to get to ronald on 3.0 on very hard, but on 4.0 i cant get past level 41.

(so, not for the previous answer, but for the first)

I mean the same. I think there should be a poll somewhere.

My case is, that:

I could beat 3.0 almost always, except some builds I didn't know what to do or that required more micromanagement I like. I found several working strategies: one pass, two pass, mixed pass (some towers here, others there), there were fast builds with good attack and slower builds with slow and weaker attack. I could win this game every way, except extreme mode. Yep, I won that once with pick, starting with steam and then going for slow asap. But that's not a problem. When I play with people nearby, I see 30% die before lvl 30, 90% die before lvl 50 on their selected level (normal or easy, sometimes harder). So, most players can't handle even v3.

Now I'm playing 4.0 solo, so I have time to gain interest and such. I'm trying everything, but I'm afraid of any strategies. Two pass is pain when levels are healing, one pass is pain for undead, mech, both of which I can't handle late-game. Composite armor is mad a bit, but possible to handle with overbuild - I saw no good composite attacking towers except electricity (and lvl0), which makes no sense around 40. I gave up playing very hard, I thought that's good because I gain more money, now I switched back to normal, with many sell 'n' rebuild at the start, concentrating on elemental counters, too. I'm not addict, not playing 10 times per day, and I don't like to learn strategies that only work solo (like sell 'n' rebuild at the first waves to gain interest -> genial way to get spammed and die before level 5). So I had 750 around lvl15, later I didn't count it. I'd say it's an average. I died on lvl 50, with a build eilfwdedd. At the start, trickery way useful, later I forgot to mass it.

So, I believe that v4b4 is a game that is nearly impossible to complete without hard work, which is not a definition of a Game. Games are to cause happiness, and this doesn't. From now on until beta5, I won't post, because 5-10 games with all lost doesn't mean that specific builds are useless for me, but the whole. So if this game is developed for 100-200 people on the globe, it's okay. If more, then it's not.

If anybody wants to know, how I lose all the time, I can send some vh replays (2-4, don't know) via e-mail. (I didn't save the normal.)

[electronX]

Level 35, you've got 6 element picks done already - on random, this means (with truly random selection, so a worse chance than in the game) that the odds of not having light are 40% - in reality, I'd say it's probably closer to a third of the time. So, two-thirds of the time you can fairly easily demolish the wave. The other third of the time, you have to build intelligently. Given that it's random, you ought to have enough money to take care of the wave if you build for quick kills or possibly even double-build (build some single-target towers at the front, sell them during the wave and replace them further back). In a small number of instances, you may be stuck with difficult elemental picks - this currently would include having like...just fire and water, since Kindle is broken. If you come up with an elemental combo on random that you think can't beat a certain wave, I'll do my best to refute that or you could submit some balance suggestions on specific towers.

Well, now on normal I had light, but I didn't sell other towers. They ran 3 times around: 30, then 16, then 4. Perhaps the 2 lvl3 earth caused, that the first run was much better than the 2nd. (The build was: i + everything except nature. It means, it is not the build's fault, either mine or the wave's.) Isn't the amount of healing higher than in case of other waves? For example, if Priests are healing 50% in 60 seconds, are wolves healing 50% too? It seems they have more.

What I really miss in this game: slowing. Because high level slows are reduced (correctly!) and slows grow linearly (why?!) in amount, and somehow in area and therefore duration, ice, storm is much more useless, than in v3. Ice should be built only 3(6)9, storm to 456.

Alltogether, why is this game harder? At the same time:

- towers cost more

- towers are weaker, especially slow, especially area slow:

-- ice is point-slow

-- glacier is... I don't know, but can't ground target

-- storm has no tower attack, it slows much less and causes less damage.

[Cisz]

Hey, it's working just as intended. Very hard is finally starting to get very hard. Ofc it's still a bit too hard at places, but definately not the standard normal mode like it was in 3.0. Great start.

[Twilice]

I think that when the magic and laser tower is finnisht.

and the fifth beta is ready, we will be able to beat the map without nature-water build, and maybe beat the map with light-darkness builds.

[electronX]

Hey, it's working just as intended. Very hard is finally starting to get very hard. Ofc it's still a bit too hard at places, but definately not the standard normal mode like it was in 3.0. Great start.

Very hard to be very hard? When I read it, I had an idea. So:

Tried Very Easy. Sold every tower between levels, between lvl 10-28 every tower was sold and my net worth was much higher (2-3x) than the net worth of my towers. (Random mode) Perhaps I spared too much later, but the wolves level leaked two times (3+1 runs, at +1 I tested what the hell is the problem, doesn't they receive damage? but they did from magic), and died on level 46. Net worth: 15K.

So. Very easy gives the same feeling as very hard, but is at least boring (20 sec between every level). Next time I'll bring some sudoku games before trying it.

Very easy is damn hard if the ENTERING health is adjusted and not the MAXIMUM. Healing levels, without the ability to build more towers are just hell. It's only better in the ability of selling everything if healing / mech levels arrive and reorganize to one patch / many two pass small patches.

[Twilice]

between lvl 10-28 every tower was sold and my net worth was much higher (2-3x) than the net worth of my towers. (Random mode)

I don't understand this line.

If you had a net worth of towers of 1500 in random. then you had 4500 gold at hand?

The towers are calculated in to the net worth. And in random they show 100% of what the tower is worth.

[Karawasa]

Glad to hear that some of you are enjoying the new challenge presented by Very Hard. To be honest, I'm not sure what can be done about Very Easy, as any change would affect Very Hard.

[electronX]

Glad to hear that some of you are enjoying the new challenge presented by Very Hard. To be honest, I'm not sure what can be done about Very Easy, as any change would affect Very Hard.

Hey, I think it's good for the game to be a bit harder, if it remains completable. If not on VH, then on an easier level. If easy isn't easier, the option should be wiped out. My idea was to spawn 30 creeps on every difficulty, or at least more than now. But, I know, that wouldn't work in multiplayer.

I started to work on an economy analysis guide which is absolutely mathematical and theoretical, and can be used to determine whether any tower is underpowered or not.

Just a simple example: the storm tower, if it is simply accounted as slowing the whole map alone by 10% and dealing no damage (so, it's not the Storm), causes 10/9 damage done by the other towers, so if you have 9 damaging towers, it's up to you to build a storm or build another damaging one. If such a storm costs 2000, then your net worth (in towers) should be 18K or above when trying to build the storm. So if your nw is 30K, then the storm rises it to 33K, while your towers cost 32K, so there is 1K profit that you can spare for interest or spend into a tower and feel it easier. If it's under, you should build something different. The fact, that storm has an attack, reduces the ability net worth, and the fact that it doesn't slow the entire map, reduces the multiplier. If it causes the damage like an earth tower, the slowing anw is 2000-225 = 1785. I don't go forward now, enough

[electronX]

between lvl 10-28 every tower was sold and my net worth was much higher (2-3x) than the net worth of my towers. (Random mode)

I don't understand this line.

If you had a net worth of towers of 1500 in random. then you had 4500 gold at hand?

The towers are calculated in to the net worth. And in random they show 100% of what the tower is worth.

For example, my net worth was 1500, I've built 3 nature towers (675) and had 825 in spare. But now, I'm recording a game and posting it, at least to show, how an eletd-lover lame plays ;-)

[electronX]

I'm recording a game and posting it, at least to show, how an eletd-lover lame plays

http://web.t-online.hu/nocturna/e044-v4 ... en_bad.w3g

Random.

Started with earth, then 2 interest picks, as usual. Then received a couple of elements. Once leaked "early", but then everything was much better than any previous play. Altough I almost doubled the number of towers, the wolves didn't leak. Oh yeah! But then slowly the spare of 5-10K got away, then I started to sell to keep it up, that resulted in leaks, then I tried to rebuild and sure-build, but without luck. Slowly but surely leaked, lvl52 (53 is the oncoming) would leak around 15 if I would have more than 5 lives left.

Build near the end: e3, w2, i2, n1, f1, finally I received light but I couldn't use it. Tried to build some slowing but storm had no real effect as well as ice. Forgot to build pure earth right after 51 while concentrating on light.

And I spoke too much

[Guest Sancdar]

Very easy is damn hard if the ENTERING health is adjusted and not the MAXIMUM. Healing levels, without the ability to build more towers are just hell. It's only better in the ability of selling everything if healing / mech levels arrive and reorganize to one patch / many two pass small patches.

This is pretty true - as long as you're using max-health adjustments for chaos, you really ought to for difficulty levels too. As it is, the Death Tower is terrible on lower modes because it starts out doing lower damage. Healing levels are, as mentioned, much harder on lower levels in comparison to the rest of the waves because they start out healing.

Although as for the 2pass/1pass restructuring...if you're not on H/VH, it really doesn't matter much for healing levels. Since they are going to be healing regardless, 1pass isn't significantly stronger against them; rather, the quick 2pass at spot 4 is probably better.