Co-op TD

[Guest Malak]

I love this mod, I really do. It's probably the most balanced TD I've played. But the one thing I wish it had was co-op. I'd like to play with a friend, both of us versus the computer. Any chance of ever making a version like that? Playing against each other isn't as fun.

[echinodermata]

Both of you against the comp? As in both of you in the same area?

[Guest Malak]

Both of you against the comp? As in both of you in the same area?

Yes. Like other TD mods. Azure TD does co-op... Skibi does co-op... I like it like that.

Obviously you'd have to tweak the balance to make it work, but I think it'd be more fun with a friend than by yourself.

[0rb3r]

Teoretically it would be possible to create a gamemode were lets say 4 players cooperate, each wave, area 1 gets 4 times the usual creeps (i.ex. 4x30 spawns), and leaking creeps are just sended to next area/player 2, and so on. It wouldnt change 2 much of the actual map and could be implemented easily. The only big problem i see is that the game would get enormous long and the interest system would be ruined or would need serious rebalance. Any constructive solutions for this?

Of course that bounty would be shared, or, alternatively, each wave another random player is the first starting (at least if you are the last player on the row, you may get nearby no creeps if the others play well or a huge lynch mob if the others are leaking). Lives are lost when the last player is unable to send all remaining spawns to hell, and so, there are only team lives, no single lives, in our 4 players case, 4x50 = 200 lives.

Just my thaughts about how to do it without changing the actual map...

[Guest Ubernuber]

That idea sounds decent... first player to get them would be selected either randomly, or just in turns. I see a problem with round two... the first player will grab most kills of the first round if he's any good, and the others don't get lots of gold to build their towers versus round 2 with.

Then again, the first two rounds can be done with identical towers, and after that a couple of creeps might have trickled down to player 3 and 4 in the queue so that they can catch up.

Hm.... interest could be abused badly, if you know you won't be first in line for a couple of rounds. I'd still like to see something like this.

AoE slow towers would also get even more overpowered than they already are. Nova + sun with some slow can make mince out of arbitrarily many creeps.

[Twilice]

I'm am making a sort of Element TD and you can either play Solo or Team. It will be called Flooded TD.

I don't se it as a competive map to element td, youst a fan made (whats it called?) version of a great TD.(Sort of)

[Guest Cataras]

That idea sounds decent... first player to get them would be selected either randomly, or just in turns. I see a problem with round two... the first player will grab most kills of the first round if he's any good, and the others don't get lots of gold to build their towers versus round 2 with.

Do you know what this discussion is about? Inventing a Teammode! And why should someone in a teamgame damage his own teammembers?

[0rb3r]

After reading the last answers I think we are talking about different things. I'll try to explain what I mean better.

I'm talking about a team game-mode. You have shared life with all other players, so, if your teammates are unable to kill the mobs you leaked, the whole team loses lives. It's a shared victory or defeat.

You start the game normally, setting 1 difficulty level for all teammates. The game starts normally for you, with the exception that you will get an increased amount of spawns depending on how many teammates youhave (double with 1 extra teammate, triple with 2 extra teammates, and so on).

The bounty of kills will be shared with all other teammates. As soon as you finish leaking (or not) the first round, the counter for the next round will start.

The creeps you leaked will appear then in your next teammates area, giving him a chance to finish your job. In the meantime, you are already busy with wave 2.

The creeps will be leaked from player to player untill the last player leaks them, if all players missed the chance to kill the wave, then the whole team starts losing lives and the passed creeps reappear in the area of the first player.

The element avatars are summoned normally with the exception that if you leak your element, the lives you lose are teamlives, so, be ready to listen something from your teammate if you do. It should also work for hero mode normally.

Whats interesting on this idea is that you have to keep an eye on the gameplay of your teammates, if one is concentrating too much on certain damage types, you should try as teammate to cover this deficiences. On games with many players, it can also happen that one player does not builds at all to keep saving interest for the lategame creeps.

The second option I meant, is more problematic but has many adventages. Bounty is still shared to not overpower anyone. Each round, the map choses randomly who will be the first, second, third,... player to kill the mobs for the starting wave. As soon as the creeps for the randomly chosen first passed his/her area, the next round counter starts. The problem: If you are unlucky you get 3 waves of creeps at the same time , but hey, it's fun. What's good on this mode is that you will probably loose control over which player you are (first or maybe last getting the wave), so you will be hell busy trying to kill as much as possible. Competitive Teamwork? The counter on the leaderboard shows the kills each player has made and as each player still has his own interest growing, you will of course try to compete with your teammates to see who gets the best build, and as the order is randomized, you can't complaint that you are leaving all creeps half dead when they pass your area. This option still gives pro's a chance to show what they are able to do and let you know whosthedaddy .

What is important on the idea is that it only needs programming and does not requires any map or gameplay redesign, it can be done with all the things we already have.

[Guest Malak]

But why not just make a single map instead? In Azure you do just one lane, but in Skibi there are 2 lanes, even if you are solo. I think I like the 2 lane approach. I like the basica map style in elementTD, but maybe stretch it longer and just add a multiplier to the # of creeps based on players playing. And maybe make it 2 lanes so you can cram more creeps in at the same time.

You'd have to either share the bounties, or increase the bounties by 75%. And you should increase the # of creeps more than double, because 2 people will be synergetic, just doubling the creeps won't make it hard enough for 2 people. Maybe increase the HP or something.

[holepercent]

another way is to do something along the lines of green circle td or burbenog td style. although that would requite a redesign of the map.

another way is the normal green td style. each player has a spawn. when a player leaks, it goes further down the map for another player to kill. there would be a 'last' defender. lives are lost only when the last defender leaks. the only edits to the map are joining some parts between players up. maybe start from host's area 3 join to player 2's area 1 or something like that.

although in element td, with the aoe slowing towers, it is still likely that one player would dominate. storm tower anyone? it would be possible that a player can hold everything in his area and slowly kills them.

[Guest Cataras]

Why not play Green TD then?

[0rb3r]

You'd have to either share the bounties, or increase the bounties by 75%. And you should increase the # of creeps more than double, because 2 people will be synergetic, just doubling the creeps won't make it hard enough for 2 people. Maybe increase the HP or something.

Agreed, it will need some money rebalancing, it can't be helped. My idea was going more to -15% shared/distribuited bounty. (So, if in a 2 players group one of the players kills a +1 bounty creep, both players get +0,425 bounty. 0,425 x 2 = 0,85 total bounty output)

The total creeps spawned would be the same in normal and coop game, with the only difference that one player after another gets the full load, so that the total earneable money from bountys considering all players together just drops this 15%. You get less money to spend, so you will have it hard to kill all the mobs on your own.

The idea of a second lane is not good imo, ETD is somehow special because of its map design, any change on the basic map distribution will destroy a part of all the hidden tower location tactics that the map has. It maybe was casual that the map has so different damageoutput depending on the location of the towers, but I really appreciate that building a tower is not always directly a guarantee for kills, there is an important knowhow behind which location is suitable for each tower. So, avoid map redesign if possible.

although in element td, with the aoe slowing towers, it is still likely that one player would dominate. storm tower anyone? it would be possible that a player can hold everything in his area and slowly kills them.

Actually that's the reason why I purposed a randomized area coop. Even if you slow, you will not always be the first one who gets the creeps, this limits you on the potential to slow down the game and farm interest. As well, you have a bit less money on this mode which delays some rounds to get the powerful triples like storm.

although in element td, with the aoe slowing towers, it is still likely that one player would dominate. storm tower anyone? it would be possible that a player can hold everything in his area and slowly kills them.

Why dont you play then Mass AoE-slow in multiplayer race mode ? Simple, the first one finishing the wave sets the counter, you end up with a full lane of different creep types. Same applies here, if your partner finishes his part of wave 45 and you get the w45 creeps, the counter is already set and you will maybe get w46 following the w45 creeps, er even worse, you get again the w46 left from a third player and the w47 counter is already ticktacking. You will only slow the entire game if you are the first player receiving a wave, and even in this case you are just giving your teammates a chance to get some cash and some time to build or even micro & farm.

So, imo, you have less advantages from slow then in a normal solo game.

About the dominance, I think it is important that a average player is able to show how good he is. So, up to a certain point, it is good if a player can dominate the game a bit, at least its random, so no player will be waiting ages to get something to kill. On a 3 players team, mathematically each 3rd wave will start in your area.

[Guest Malak]

Why not play Green TD then?

The comments on that mod looked like it wasn't very good.

To be honest, so far the only 2 really balanced TD's I've found are element TD and Azure. The rest I'm finding are either too hard or too easy. Some are just plain stupid.

[Guest Ubernuber]

That idea sounds decent... first player to get them would be selected either randomly, or just in turns. I see a problem with round two... the first player will grab most kills of the first round if he's any good, and the others don't get lots of gold to build their towers versus round 2 with.

Do you know what this discussion is about? Inventing a Teammode! And why should someone in a teamgame damage his own teammembers?

Ever played a team TD? Ever noticed the lack of teamwork in non-arranged teams? From my experience, even in teamwork TDs, everybody tries to monopolize the kills, thus the gold and thus the best towers. After a while, the 60-80% of the players that don't get any kills at all and can't advance their tower tree just quit. For this reason, it's immensely important to make this situation impossible by design.

It's just boring as hell if all you can do on a team map is watch your mate do his thing, stand by, applaud and say "well done, sir".

[0rb3r]

It's just boring as hell if all you can do on a team map is watch your mate do his thing, stand by, applaud and say "well done, sir".

Actually, if you have shared bounty, you can sell all towers and farm nice amounts of interest getting bounties from your mates during 2-3 rounds and build good towers to be back in action, just don't overdoit or your teammates will complain.

As well, with random appearance, you will get creeps even if your mates are good killers, and with their bounties you may get a good killer as well

[Karawasa]

Moved to suggestions. This is something I have considered implementing. To be honest though, it seems more fitting for a later version as there are plenty of changes already implemented.