VE Spamming Fix

[Guest mrchak]

(I forget the actual numbers from the trigger. Karawasa, could you post them?)

Do people think that when a player on VERY EASY finishes a round, the next round starts too soon? Many people have complained that a person can just play VE and defeat everything as soon as it comes out of the spawn area, then cream the players on VH.

Currently the waiting period before a round starts is dependent on the difficulty of the player who finished the round, but should it be INSTEAD adjusted based on the other players difficulties?

For example, lets say that for each level of difficulty add 5 seconds to round completion time. So the game can wait:

(Max((Hardest_Difficulty - Difficulty_of_player_who_finished),0)*5 +5) seconds to the timer between rounds.

So if a VE player finishes first, and there is a Very Hard player playing, the game will wait 25 seconds. If a very hard player finishes first, then it will only wait 5 (or some other appropriate minimum).

M = Minimum wait time
D = difference in wait time per difficulty level

Difficulty
Difference  Waiting Time
0           M
1           M + D
2           M + D * 2
3           M + D * 3
4           M + D * 4

So what do y'all think? will this solve the problem?

[Cisz]

So what you suggest (New) compared as it is (Old) looks like this?

Max     Pl      New     Old
vh      ve      25      25
h       ve      20      25
n       ve      15      25
e       ve      10      25
ve      ve      5       25

Max     Pl      New     Old
vh      e       20      20
h       e       15      20
n       e       10      20
e       e       5       20
ve      e       5       20

Max     Pl      New     Old
vh      n       15      15
h       n       10      15
n       n       5       15
e       n       5       15
ve      n       5       15

Max     Pl      New     Old
vh      h       10      10
h       h       5       10
n       h       5       10
e       h       5       10
ve      h       5       10

Max     Pl      New     Old
vh      vh      5       5
h       vh      5       5
n       vh      5       5
e       vh      5       5
ve      vh      5       5

So basically you make things faster. Thats not what you wanted, right?

[Guest mrchak]

The "M" value for minimum wait time and "D" value for difference per difficulty level should be modified to make it BETTER not worse. It's the CONCEPT that I'm suggesting, dude. Like I said, "I forget the actual numbers from the trigger."

For example, maybe the minimum time between rounds should be 5, add 6 seconds per level difference between first and max.

Thus:

Max     Pl      New     Old
vh      ve      29      25
h       ve      23      25
n       ve      17      25
e       ve      11      25
ve      ve      5       25

Because if all players are on very easy, you don't need to wait 25 seconds between levels, right? that's just ridiculous!

The goal is to lessen the effects of VE spamming. So the game would be faster some times and slower sometimes, but most importantly, it should be more fair.

[Guest Sancdar]

Cisz's numbers aren't right, are they? I thought it was only like 3 seconds difference between levels. I think this is a good suggestion, I was thinking of something similar but mine didn't make any sense.

[Guest mrchak]

The real numbers are

VE 21 sec

E 18 sec

N 15 sec

H 12 sec

VH 9 sec

[Guest Sancdar]

Of course the "real" times are different than that, since creeps start spawning at different intervals after the round begins. I know that was done to reduce the impact of VE rushing, but it really slowed down the easier levels a ton. Maybe make it so the highest difficulty starts spawning immediately and the lower ones have the correct offset from there?

[Guest mrchak]

Good call.

So Karawasa, on the Start Level trigger, on the loop that spawns units, it should say

For each (Integer Spawn_Loop) from spawn_loop_start to 30 do (Actions)

and spawn_loop_start should be set to 1 + (5-highest_Difficulty)*3

highest_difficulty being the highest of all players, 5=vh, 1=ve.

I think this should do it. Unless 5=ve and 1=vh... but i'm sure you know that.

This still won't solve the original problem mentioned, but it should help.

[Cisz]

I'd say 5 seconds is to fast for most players, no matter what difficulty.

Also in my experience the problem with ve spammers occurs lategame, but I'm no normal player. I'd either implement some factor depending on the current wave, or raise the numbers to 6, 12, 18, 24, 30 fixed.

[holepercent]

5 sec is too short to rebuild your entire defense in mid-late game in random...should be slightly longer...

in my case, i have problems with ve spammers in the early game... when the ve spammer is at IV and i'm playing at VI. he finishes his wave much faster than me. there was one game where i had 3 spawns in my area (also i was playing slow) ... most of the time, after a vh player gets the core defense (storm towers anyone?) up, it isn't much of a problem

[Cisz]

in my case, i have problems with ve spammers in the early game... when the ve spammer is at IV and i'm playing at VI. he finishes his wave much faster than me.

The fastest a ve spammer can do at 4 is about 40 seconds from wave start to wave start. And a defender at 6 needs about 36 seconds to clear a wave from shoot one to last shoot.

So I doubt you story.

Let me speak strongly against the proposed changes.

Where exactly is this problem?

In a mixed diff game opening, the vh player is at a big advantage. He can spam faster than any other player. You might argue that it is very hard to spam on vh, and very easy on ve, but the point is:

If you are playing a mixed diff game, and you can't play on 4 or 3 against a ve racer on 7, you have chosen the wrong difficulty. Play hard on 4 and you will be fine. If I had a very bad day, I counter ve spammers at 7 with vh spamming at 7. They get big problems with every time they leak, as they get two sided or are busy catching the leaks, and, as I mentioned before, 5 seconds is to fast for a ve player. In early game you either need to train or pick a lower difficulty, but the ve/vh matchup is very possible indeed.

So where is the problem?

It's lategame. You can counter ve racers with vh on 4 only so long. In endgame you will find yourself with bad elements on random or taking long for wave 51, while the ve spammer doesn't get slower at all if he is really good at the game.

I can most likely race a vh player to death, if I play a ve pick on 7. He might have a chance on lfwd-n at 5, but it will get tough. Random is not valid.

So only lategame ve/vh is impossible to hold. And no training will help you there.

I claim the following:

No ve player can race me succesfully before wave 30 (that is I won't leak more than maybe 5).

And no vh player will stand un-raced till ronald against me playing lfwd-n on 7.

The second claim may be a bit daring, if he counters with lfwd-n as well, but I've been in a similiar situation and it was really hard, even though the ve spammer wasn't very good at it.

So again:

In early game the timing is perfect as it is. Beginners that play ve need the extra time to play. If anything, nerf the vh players ability to spam so fast to protect new players. In case of a pro going ve on mixed diff, it is quite possible to hold that on any difficulty except extreme.

In lategame I can see no way a vh player can survive vs ve. So there the delay for a professional ve spammer needs to be raised, while the delay for a vh racer trying to kill ve players is ok.

What exactly is the complaint we are talking about? Do we have examples of those problems? Is it possible the the players complaining are not that good and try to play vh on 9 in a mixed diff game?

[holepercent]

ok... i think i was trying to play dfne for that game and lost to a storm tower... which is my own mistake for trying to play a weak build...

i've seen the problems arising when an average vh player plays against a pro ve player...

i agree that i we do need to define this problem better.. it's not just about the ve/vh matchup as that can be handled as you have said..

[Guest mrchak]

In previous versions of the map (before 3.0), a VE player's difficulty was raised to Easy if they complete 10 rounds without leaking.

A E player's difficulty was raised to Normal if they completed 10 rounds without leaking.

The idea behind this was (in theory) to prevent pro players from abusing the Easy and Very Easy difficulty modes to upset the game balance for others. This function was removed in 3.0. Do you see this as a viable way to prevent a VE player from getting to level 40+ to spam VH players? Should the game try to auto-detect a player's proficiency level and increase their difficulty?

[Guest left.side]

Do you get any sort of bonus cash when that happens to compensate for the sudden difficulty boost?

Perhaps if you are the first to finish several waves in a row, your difficulty is increased? This wouldn't (presumably) affect less experienced players, but would punish better players who are simply abusing the difficulty option. As Cisz mentioned, the disparity between ve/vh doesn't really make itself felt until the late game anyhow.

[Guest mrchak]

another solution is that if you are really concerned with this sort of thing happening, play more structured, tournament style games with more rules (for example, all players on the same difficulty). It could be argued that if you are playing a public game with a bunch of strangers, this sort of thing will happen now and then, and you just live with it.

[Guest 1mpulse]

although it has slight imbalance sometimes, i think it just adds to the difficulty and skill required to play on very hard...

the system that ups the difficulty is a good idea, but anyone can not leak the first 10 rounds, and then somebody slowly learning and going up the difficulties (like me =) ) will never be able to finish once it gets too difficult.

spawn intervals based on player difficulties is good once worked with

[Guest Sancdar]

I liked the difficulty increase, but it did need some gold compensation. In 2.0, VE was significantly harder than Normal. My other suggestion has already been outlined above, that waves always start when the timer says they do if everyone is on the same difficulty.

[Karawasa]

I am leaning toward Cisz's suggestion, that of simply increasing the time.

It is currently:

18/15/12/9/6

I propose:

25/21/17/13/9