0.63 early balancing

[Rai]

i am wondering about the balance between grenade and ray towers, grenade seems to be significantly better on early waves - esp seen in multiplayer games where spamming the front is common

Edit: even on very hard one can spam the front with grenades and wont leak, that should really not be possible imho.

[Twilice]

Exactly my point. We need battlecruiser laserz naow!

Lol I can't stop with that x)

[Rai]

just grenade-cooldown on 1,1 or sth. just a lil

[Karawasa]

The towers are the same as WC3 in terms of DPS ratio. Grenade has half that of Ray. However, Ray was slowed down to one shot Very Hard level 1.

So, is what you're describing really a problem? The towers have different uses, or at least should. I'd say neither is better than the other. Just different usage.

But I could be wrong. Discuss!

[Rai]

its just that it wasnt possible in wc3 to spam front with grenades in VH ... so they r better than in wc3 for what reason ever -.-

many things look the same like in wc3, but it seems this sc2 version needs to be newly balanced.

[Chiquihuite]

I'll try to get some theorycrafting done on this when I have the time. I agree that grenades "feel" like a much stronger option for everything short of element bosses, but I'm not sure that can be helped given the simplicity of the early waves.

Once you get to later waves and have things like Fast or Undead, creeps stop being so perfectly clumped and the advantage of splash isn't as clear-cut. I find myself using Rays as leak catchers in those cases. Anyway, I don't know if nerfing grenades is necessarily the answer, but we'll discuss it for sure.

[Twilice]

You would be better of getting Grenade tower unless they are fast / mechanical or healing. So in my opinion it's not the grenade tower that is to strong. Rather ray that is a bit to weak. (it's impossible to use ray tower if you play vs players of other difficulties you will be rushed in an instant and pushed to build on 2 or 3 all game long.)

[Rai]

very hard - spam front with grenades and kill every creep within 10 tiles of way ... seriously, that MUST not work.

I agree that grenades get worse with speed, healing or mech but its just too easy build`n`selling with them early to get ahead.

since ray/gren are rarely built or only an addition after level 10 balancing them on early waves is critical imo.

[Twilice]

At what front? I tried building them at 7/8 but didn't work.

Building at 4 should be OK imo really. . . grenade are not OP ray are UP.

[Rai]

12 o clock to 11 o clock, just mass lvl 1 grenades .. i finished lvl 5 within 2:30.

ray lvl 1 starts with the same position, yet i rebuilt 3 times and the wave wasnt finished ...

grenades lvl 1_5.SC2Replay

ray lvl 1.SC2Replay

[Karawasa]

Interesting replays. Could keep Ray's damage the same but reduce speed to 1 from 1.5. Thoughts?

[Rai]

too drastic, maybe 1.2 ^^ i still think grenades are too strong, not rays r too weak ...

quick edit: dont quite remember, but wc3 feeling was that rebuilding 2-3 times with any low tower was normal for first wave.

needs testing

[Twilice]

It's confirmed that level 1 grenade tower does not get it's damage reduced. That is why it is so strong. Even stronger then a level 3 grenade.

[Chiquihuite]

Ahh so it's bugged? Interesting.

[Rai]

tested the upgrades, they work fine and "equal" on the creeps.

yay, advanced bugfinding ;p

[Karawasa]

Changed this up in 0.65. Let me know how they feel now.