Hero Mode

[Karawasa]

In my opinion, this mode causes more trouble then it is worth. It is not balanced in 3.0, and balancing it is a nightmare. Besides, none of the heroes really have any unique abilities.

I propose to axe the mode completely. In its place, a new mode can be implemented.

[Cisz]

The hero mode is actually quite popular among the less skilled players.

I'd say, nerf it a bit and give the heroes useless but colourfull effects. Like fisher price.. They draw noobs into the map and thats cool with me.

And don't bother with balancing them. No strong player I know uses them anyway.

[Guest loubou]

I agree that a complete axing may not be necessary. I see it as a harmless gimmick that draws more attention to the game

As far as nerfing them, and this is just a quick thought, what about lets have elemental mercenaries instead of heroes? So maybe instead of heroes with auras we'll have purchasable creeps with just 1 or 2 elemental power each. And more creeps become available with more of the same elements obtained... or something like that!

[Cisz]

I've been doing some thinking over the night, and my results are like this:

A hero can easily mess up the lower difficulties, and that's ok with me. They are allready deliberately messed up and meant for beginners. Making them even easier doesn't hurt imo.

To avoid h/vh cheese, the heroes should have a high damage with a long cooldown, affecting only one creep. In fact, every ability that affects single targets only is less effective on higher levels, needs to be microed, and ofc shouldn't affect elementals.

Only aura buffs/debuffs are problematic imo.

[Karawasa]

I believe that to make it easy to balance, and fun to play, heroes should not have the ability to cause damage. Instead, they should all have unique abilities that disable, buff, debuff etc. Examples include: ability to teleport creep back to spawn, ability to stop time within a radius etc. That way, heroes would have to be used with some thought, as opposed to just spamming shit.

[Guest mrchak]

I've been playing VH, Chaos, SR, Hero for the past... like 5 months It seems, and it stays fun. I'd be very sad if heroes went away. I'm all for changing them, maybe even having them not damage but instead have slowing/stunning/etc abilities.

I think they're a cool feature.

[Karawasa]

That is the side I'm leaning toward now. Keep them, but modify them. Besides, it will be a good opportunity to incorporate a lot of flashy spells (think JASS).

[Cisz]

I believe that to make it easy to balance, and fun to play, heroes should not have the ability to cause damage. Instead, they should all have unique abilities that disable, buff, debuff etc. Examples include: ability to teleport creep back to spawn, ability to stop time within a radius etc. That way, heroes would have to be used with some thought, as opposed to just spamming shit.

All abilities that have an aoe, like buffs/debuffs, could unbalance the higher difficulties. Everything that does aoe will be used to improve a cluster of pures or debuff a tight clump containing an entire wave.

Imo, only single target effects won't ruin the balance. And that includes a single target attack, as long as it has a long cooldown.

[Karawasa]

But we are not THAT worried about balance. I think it is easier to balance things when damage is not a factor.

[Guest Sancdar]

So...what buffs and debuffs wouldn't affect damage? If you're slowing creeps, that's upping the damage time for all your other towers. If you're speeding up towers or increasing their damage, that's increasing their DPS. Just about the only non-damage-related abilities are a brilliance aura, which is pretty lame because not many towers need mana (and imba with flesh golems, of course), or the gold aura, which wasn't that good and ends up (surprise!) giving you more money to get more damage.

[Karawasa]

Yes, but those things can be percentages. That way, it is relative. When dealing with absolute numbers (an attack, a firebolt, a chain lightning) you have to pay careful attention to numbers relative to point in game (and thus creep health).

[Guest Sancdar]

Oh, I get it. My bad.

[Guest mrchak]

Please excuse me, I'm going to rant for just a little bit about how I like heroes. If you don't want to hear it, just skip this post.

-------------------------------------------

I don't like the idea of losing the hero auras...

All of the hero auras are meant to improve tower effectiveness in similar ways, though some might be more useful than others

Bonus % to Damage - improves DPS directly but does not improve effectiveness of abilities that damage (tidal tower, dinosaur slam)

Bonus % to Attack speed - effectively the same DPS increase, but things like Dinosaur Slam will be improved ineffectiveness (since it is cast more often). Things likeTidal Tower / Magic tower will not because it still takes just as long to recharge the ability, so it can only be cast just as often per second.

Bonus % to Bounty - ultimately, you would have more cash and be able to afford more towers, so the added towers would increase DPS of your build as a whole

Decrease # creep armor - essentially is just like increase % to damage

Slow Aura - meant to slow creeps by a certain %, which would mean they are in range of the towers for a % of time longer, so the towers can deal that much more damage.

Maybe you'll think its dumb that I, the author of the map, like playing Hero mode, but I think it's REALLY fun, and I think the auras are neat as well. Maybe some of them are more powerful than others, so the numbers can be adjusted, or the range of the auras can be adjusted - but I'd be sad to see them go (not to mention sad to see the hero mode go).

Furthermore, I don't think heroes deal significant damage, not like they used to back in 2.0, (they got wicked powerful by lv 30). They can help a little bit, but only as much as another tower basically. They can help in a pinch if you have 1 unit that is going to leak, but they are in no ways an uber damaging tower.

They're in the game for fun, and if no serious player wants to play hero mode, then thats fine, don't play it. But its there, the heroes have more-or-less equivalent abilities, and I'll be damned if "Destromath" is not going to be a presence in Element TD Final...

Oh, and if this post seems really disorganized, its because I wrote it in 3 sittings while at work.

[Guest Sancdar]

I like playing with heroes sometimes. They're just...awkward. I liked the old heroes, even though they were overpowered. I remember soloing the entire second half of the game with my hero

[Karawasa]

I don't have any intention of removing hero mode at this point. As for the auras, they should all be fine except immolation aura. I am more concerned with replacing the "single target disable and damage," and the "multiple target damage spell," and finally the "summons."

[Guest mrchak]

Yea Immolation aura should be replaced, it really doesn't fit.

I wonder what would be appropriate in its place.

[Twilice]

This maybe sounds like an odd idea but, wouldn't it be cool to go sooloing all the levels with heroes ddxx.

I like the hero mode, I think that they are here to stay, many players apprichiate them and specially the auras.

I 100% agree with MrChak.

[Karawasa]

Just looked at the poll, seems like more people want hero mode axed. I am leaning toward axing hero mode again, here is why:

-The heroes and their abilities add easily 5-6+ seconds to the map loading time, that is around 33% of it.

-The proposed abilities (mine) are ambitious and would probably add even more loadtime total.

-The heroes and their abilities take up map space, at least 50 kb, I haven't tested.

-Removing hero mode allows me space to make allrandom/samerandom able to voted on at the start of the game.

-Without a revamp of hero mode, I feel it is shitty to have an imbalanced and boring ability based mode in an otherwise very polished game (I hope it is at least).

-Not revamping hero mode will make the release of 4.0 a lot faster, the tower abilities are almost done being coded. If we don't go ahead with all the shit I had planned for hero mode, then basically (some content added, like tournament mode) the map just needs balance/bug tweaks and it is done.

-Hero mode can be put back in a later version, where all the abilities have been discussed and coded.

[Guest emjlr3]

Just looked at the poll, seems like more people want hero mode axed. I am leaning toward axing hero mode again, here is why:

I like heroes

The heroes and their abilities add easily 5-6+ seconds to the map loading time, that is around 33% of it.

does that really matter? in the grand scheme of things?

The proposed abilities (mine) are ambitious and would probably add even more loadtime total.

I like abilities

The heroes and their abilities take up map space, at least 50 kb, I haven't tested.

o nooess, 50kb....takes all of .25s to dl

Removing hero mode allows me space to make allrandom/samerandom able to voted on at the start of the game

.

why is that?

Not revamping hero mode will make the release of 4.0 a lot faster, the tower abilities are almost done being coded. If we don't go ahead with all the shit I had planned for hero mode, then basically (some content added, like tournament mode) the map just needs balance/bug tweaks and it is done.

almost done?? don't hold your breath...

Hero mode can be put back in a later version, where all the abilities have been discussed and coded

that is an idea, I feel overwhelemd as it is

[Karawasa]

almost done?? don't hold your breath...

You've made really good progress. Perhaps I spoke incorrectly, but I do feel like we've come a long way in getting them done.

that is an idea, I feel overwhelemd as it is

A valid point. Adding another 13 abilities would probably not help.

[Guest mrchak]

9 - 7 is not an overwhelming majority, don't you like the point that some new players will be attracted by hero mode, then they will learn the game and its strategy and will become die-hard fans. That being said, hero mode can be removed and put back if there is popular demand.

I don't buy the idea that regular players suffer because of the presence of hero mode. 50kb file size and 5-6 seconds load time seem like very small differences in the grand scheme of things, considering the other extra stuff that increases file size (map preview and loading screen) that has no bearing on the gameplay. Speaking of which, (loading screen), If hero mode is axed, you will be seing the loading screen for 33% less time so we won't be able to appreciate its beauty as much; and the loading screen is what takes up most of the file size in the first place, though that probably doesn't impact load time...

I'm not saying that the load screen should be removed, i'm just saying that 5-6 seconds of load time is not necessarily all that bad.

[0rb3r]

To be honest, when I play multigame I often see the same players choosing VE and hero mode. My impression is that the hero mode seems to be quite popular for newcommers. Don't ask my why but some people seems to feel to have a "bonus" if they see an accesible and controllable hero on their side. It also is funny, by the way. I don't play hero mode for ages, but I admit that when I first started playing EleTD I started with hero mode. I growed up with it.

EleTD is not one of those games that needs huuuge loadingtime, so, imo the adventages and disadventages of having or not a hero-mode option are pretty equal, I feel that axing hero mode will make the game lose a bit of its "magic". But I really don't care much. It just isn't something I use to play now.

[Karawasa]

Alright, let us forget the points about loadtime and mapsize. You guys are right about them being insignificant.

I suppose it comes down to emjlr3, and if he is willing to take on the 12 or so new abilities that would need to be coded. As encouragement, I don't think the new abilities will take nearly as much time as the tower ones, because a few of them are similar to the tower ones and a few of them are similar to DotA ones that he has coded before.

What concerns me is time. School starts for me in September, so I would like to have the majority of things completed by then (i.e. new content, so that what is needed is mostly balance). I've got about 2 1/2 weeks to get the time consuming stuff out of the way.

Another thing to consider is that it will delay the release of 4.0, unless we don't focus on the balance of heroes as much as the towers (i.e. aim for somewhat good balance, instead of really good).

However, it does seem like there are good reasons to keep hero mode. I've been going back and forth on this, but in the end I think it would be really fun to have a mode where you had a hero with a bunch of crazy spells. It does make sense that this is a big draw to newcomers, and that makes it valuable to keep.

[Twilice]

Before I liked playing hero mode, but no more.