Chaos Mode

[Karawasa]

Currently:

Every level spawns a random assortment of creeps that are either one before the current level, at the current level, or one after the current level.

Proposed:

Each level is determined by random chance. The percentages would need to be worked out, but what armor and creep type you get would be completely up to chance. This would apply to the WHOLE level.

[Guest mrchak]

So you're saying that when each level spawns, there's a chance the armor type will be:

1/7 Non-elemental

1/7 Earth

1/7 Fire

1/7 Water

1/7 Light

1/7 Dark

Furthermore, there creep may be:

40% normal

15% Healing

15% Mechanical

15% Fast

15% Undead

But all spawns will have the same armor and ability?

Interesting, MUCH more chaotic. Chaos mode actually is more of an Evened out mode... Its more of a hodge podge mode than CHAOS. THIS would be fun. Its a true CHAOS mode.

[Karawasa]

You have the right idea. Glad you like it. If only I knew how to implement it, hopefully the coder will know.

[Guest Sancdar]

Hmm, if every creep gets its own chance, that would be kind of crazy. I'm not sure exactly how that would play out. Definitely no re-building every level for the appropriate elements, like you can still kind of do in Chaos mode right now. Plus, if every creep in each wave gets the same random abilities, I really don't want to hit like...three healing earth waves in a row. That would just suck.

[Cisz]

I like the concept. Much better than chaos V.1.0.

[Guest mrchak]

As long as its not just making 7 versions of each spawn unit, thats fine. It would be very sloppy in my opinion to do that.

furthermore, I think the model of the unit should somehow relate to its armor type, it should not just be arbitrary. Creating a sludge minion with Light armor type is just dumb; If the unit is going to be Mechanical, then it should be a mechanical unit too.

Healing, Fast and Normal could potentially use the same model, but they're designed currently to try to make sense (Healing units are priests and stuff) though that's not always the case.

So what I'm saying is this: If this requires that for all 60 levels there be 35 possible units, then this is not going to work.

If, however, we keep the 60 units that already exist, and we can somehow every level pick a random one and modify its HP, that could work nicely. So every game you'll always get to all 60 of the units, but the order is random; that could be really cool. the bitch is programming a way to change their HP;

One way to do it, I guess, is to have an ability with 60 levels, each level give extra HP. Each spawn is given that ability with the appropriate level. There are probably other ways to do it.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

[Guest Sancdar]

Yeah, it's not that hard to change max hitpoints on creeps. I think Multiple TD is a good example of this.

Perhaps every time an elemental level is spawned, the creeps are taken from one of those levels and just given the proper stats. We should have a creep for each element with each special ability as well, right?

[Guest mrchak]

Sounds like a suggestion is something like this:

For each armor type, 5 that are normal, 2 that are mech, 2 that are undead, 2 fast and 2 healing; so theres like 13 for each element; counting non-elemental, that is about 75 to choose from; so in a given game of 60 levels, in chaos mode the game would randomly pick 60 of those, randomize the order, and the game would begin.

That could work. BUT do we want to create all of these extra units only so they can be used in chaos mode? there's already 60 units that are varied in their armors and abilities, we could just use them, and reorder them and revise their HP when they are spawned.

Probably level 1 should always be the wolves, and if its going to be chaos mode, host has to type it before level 1 ends.

[Guest Sancdar]

That could work. BUT do we want to create all of these extra units only so they can be used in chaos mode? there's already 60 units that are varied in their armors and abilities, we could just use them, and reorder them and revise their HP when they are spawned.

That's kind of what I was saying.

The other main option to decide for Chaos Mode was brought up by your post - should the distribution of levels include a max on the number of specific combinations or abilities? Sure, the odds may be against getting ten earth healing waves in one game, but should it be able to happen?

[0rb3r]

I think you still should be able to know what the next level is on the multiboard. And yes, it should be possible to get 10 earth waves in a row (the chance that this happens is 1 to 7exp10, so 1 to 282million, so, it is not likely to ever happen, in fact, it is not likely that you ever get the same 10 elements row twice in your life; earth+healing? 1 to 500 billion chance... omg ).

Do you really need 5 element+normal creeps? There should be 2 models for each element+special classification type, and 3 for each element+no-classification type. For 6 possible classifications there would be (7x3+7x6x2=) 105 different models. Can this be done?

[Guest mrchak]

It can be done. Do you want to do it?

[0rb3r]

It can be done. Do you want to do it?

We need to know first how many classifications will definately be in the game.

Me to create the extra units? Srry but I didn't apply to be in the development team cuz I am desperately bussy till september (I really would have loved it to be in); I don't exactly now how much work it is but I can just post some comments for now

[Guest mrchak]

Ok, I had some free time, here's a potential layout of units.

Uh oh, not a lot of mechanical units available! What to do?

Need another

Earth Mech

Nature Mech

Fire Mech

Light Mech

Suggestions?

[Guest Issunboshi]

Ok, I had some free time, here's a potential layout of units.

Uh oh, not a lot of mechanical units available! What to do?

Need another

Earth Mech

Nature Mech

Fire Mech

Light Mech

Suggestions?

Nice job. looks good so far

Earth: Rock Golem?

Nature: Hmm.. A walking ancient? Mountain Giant?

Fire: A barge on fire? Well, if you remember the Hindenburg...

Light: Gyrocopter?

looking at the discussion.. does that mean that there will be a chance for any element to spawn.. so would you need 420 different creeps or is it that lets say its level 2 (goblin tinkers) and their armor would be random?

do all the creeps have the same chance to appear on a level? so if a doom guard spawns, will it be spawning at if it level 58(?) or is he spawning at a leveled rate?

[Guest mrchak]

I think the flaming zepplin and gyrocopter are great ideas.

Nature is tricky. I don't think mountain giant would work. UNLESS the skin was changed.

What would be awesome would be wooden puppets (like Pinnochios)/ Or wooden Soldiers... that would be perfect for Nature/Mech

Another Earth/Mech... Perhaps the Siege Golem can be changed to Earth/Mech instead of Normal Mech.

does that mean that there will be a chance for any element to spawn.. so would you need 420 different creeps or is it that lets say its level 2 (goblin tinkers) and their armor would be random?

do all the creeps have the same chance to appear on a level? so if a doom guard spawns, will it be spawning at if it level 58(?) or is he spawning at a leveled rate?

In this chaos mode, every level there would be an equal chance of any of these pre-defined units (the 100+ in the table above) to be spawned, with HP readjusted to match the current game HP growths. They would be taken out of the pool so they cannot be spawned again.

Evil children would still always be level 60, maybe timber wolves always level 1. Besides that, every level would be random. So some games may be heavy on the mech, some on the healing, some might have more darkness than others... but there won't have to be 400+ units pre-made.

That's how I see it working. And I think it would be really hot, as long as there's an easy way to use triggers to change the spawn's max HP.

[Cisz]

Nature mechanicals:

-An altar of the forces of nature on wheels.

-A transport truck pulled by bisons or buffalos.

- A cage wagon with captured beasts.

- A light war wagon pulled by griffins or pegasi, controlled by a wood elven archer.

-A ramm covered with camouflage like brushes and leaves.

-And of course the all famous air strike willow-basket death-from-above-pod caried by a swarm of bats in a harness.

Want more?

[Guest mrchak]

Unless we have someone who will make the models it will not help.

We CAN use the model of Illidan captured in the cage though; that's like a captured beast, he's a night elf... So it works for Nature Mechanical.

Thats probably the easiest. In my opinion we should use as many in-game models to keep the file-size low if possible. They are also bug-free.

[Cisz]

Can we conbine existing models to a new one? Like a cage and a beast and a wagon?

[Guest Sancdar]

And I think it would be really hot, as long as there's an easy way to use triggers to change the spawn's max HP.

There is.

I don't see a reason to take units out of the "possible pool", unless you mean that you don't want models to repeat as long as there is another model of that element/type available, in which case I agree. I think it should be possible to get the same type of wave more than 2 times in a game though.

[Guest mrchak]

When I said remove it from the pool, I mean once you get a level that is "Doom Guards" you will not get Doom Guards again for the rest of the game. You may get another Fast/Dark, but you will not get Doom Guards. I think that 2 is enough of each of the element/special classification combinations per game (i.e. you would not get a third dark/fast level). Do you think 2 is not enough?

I think repetition of a wave during a game is annoying. It's an aesthetic thing. I've played games where like 5 levels are Giants Spiders, and it makes me think the creator was just lazy.

In a chaos game, I think that a pool of 12 units for each armor type (4 normal, 2 of each of the 4 special classifications x 7 armor types) is enough for a varied chaos game. That'ss 84 units (plus a few more Non-elemental armor for the early levels) and each chaos game would be good and different.

I don't see a need to have repeats possible. Do you think it would be better if it was possible to have more than 2 Undead/Earth per game? Would it really make that much of a difference I mean?

[Guest Sancdar]

Well, that's kind of the point of it being chaos, right? If you're limiting it to only 11 possible Fire waves for example, while you can have 13 Water and 15 non-elementals, that's kind of weird.

[0rb3r]

I think that 2 is enough of each of the element/special classification combinations per game (i.e. you would not get a third dark/fast level). Do you think 2 is not enough?

I just made some probability calculations and found out that having 2 models, each classification has about a 50% chance per game to appear a 3rd time. So, in mid-value with 4 classifications, each game would repeat 2 waves.

I don't see a need to have repeats possible. Do you think it would be better if it was possible to have more than 2 Undead/Earth per game? Would it really make that much of a difference I mean?

Well, the concept of chaos is to be absolutely random. You get 2 waves repeated, so what, you asked for this mode, its optional, you dont need to play it if you dont want to.

Chaos is nice because you have less time to planify and need to be more flexible with your strategy, imo blocking a ele+classif. type to be limited to 2 waves maximum just harms the chaos concept.

The best should be to take as much models as are available and, hell, if we dont find a 3rd model for nature+mechanical, it repeats itself. I dont think I would notice anyways when i'm bussy building.

[Guest mrchak]

I think of chaos as more of a shuffle than a 100% randomization. But if people want repeating waves, go for it. It would be better to have a group to choose from but I feel strongly that

- each armor type should somehow be reflected by the model

- each classification should make sense with the model thats used

- the game should avoid using the same model in more than 1 wave if possible for aesthetic reasons.

Its a lot more work for the developers to have 400 units pre-set up to choose from, rather than 80 pre-defined, to pick 60 from and shuffle the order. That's my one concern when it comes down to it, I don't want these guys having a hell of a time putting this together. At any rate, I've put in my 2 cents worth, I'm not the one making the decision.

[Karawasa]

Alright, I gave it some thought and I have a solution. I need a few things tested (MrChak can you do this?), and if they work then we are golden. The reason behind this is that I am temporarily on a computer without War3. Here is what I need tested:

-If you use a passive ability to add HP, and then the Ele TD trigger that reduces HP based on difficulty kicks in, will it work like it should?

-Is there a way to do healing without HP Regen? Can you do fountain of life for "Self," and will it only work for "Self?" Is there some other method (it needs to be % based), that works only for "Self?"

If these two things work out, then here is what I propose:

All creeps in the game will have 1 hp, instead of their normal HP in unit stats. The passive ability will add hp based on level. The healing will be taken care of by some % healing ability instead of HP/Regen in creep stats. By doing this, we can then make chaos a very interesting mode! The creep order will be completely randomized, the creeps themselves will remain unchanged. You might get a 75 hp doom guard level 1, or a 665975 hp timber wolf level 60. It would be determined at the start, so -fast, -earth etc. would still work. This way, every game is different .

Thoughts? Someone please test .

[Cisz]

This would be great, but.

If you enable the "-something" commands, people will spam "-anything" at the beginning to plan their play. It's very important when you are on pick. Do we have no earth waves? Is the last fire before wave 20? Are all healing and fast after wave 40?

So I'd suggest to either disable the "-thingy" commands, or:

Give an easy way to check all waves w/o command lines. I suggested this a long time ago. A line of 60 objects to represent element and type of each wave. There is plenty of space between the players areas, so even two such "wave previews" are possible (one between player 1/2 and 8/7 and one between 3/4 and 6/5).

I suggest we don't use example creeps, but icons like flames, water effects and such for the elements, and skulls (undead), and little robots (mechanical) and such for the types. The current wave gets removed, so only future waves are displayed (to avoid confusion).

A bit like this:

_ M _ U _

F E W N E

Or like this:

Check out blizzard td (which you have as it is part of the tft installation, it's in "..Warcraft III\Maps\FrozenThrone\Scenario"), there is a long list of preview creeps on the upper border of the map. The waves that get spawned are removed, so only the remaining waves are displayed.

Like this:

The map "Nature's Call - Circle Defense" has an identical feature, a line of example creeps around the border: