New Creeps

[Karawasa]

Two ideas for new types of creeps:

Persistent:

Has a 25/33/50% (number to be decided) chance to not take damage if it would be lethal.

Tank:

Has movespeed 200 instead of default 300, but only takes 50% damage.

Like? Dislike? New ideas?

[Cisz]

I'm not sure if we need more types. Eletd allready has the record for most different creep types afaik. 7 armours x 5 attributes = 35 combos. Thats less than 2 per game and type. Substract the first 10-15 waves where basic towers are enough, and you get very close to one.

Afaik some combos are not in the game at all right now:

1-60
   x  m  u  f  h  Sum
x  6  2  1  1  1  = 11
l  3  1  1  1  2  =  8
d  2  1  2  2  1  =  8
w  5  1  1     1  =  8
f  2  1  2  2  1  =  8
n  5  2        2  =  9
e  3  1  2  1  1  =  8

   =  =  =  =  =
  26  9  9  7  9



1-10
   x  m  u  f  h  Sum
x  3  1  1        =  5
l           1     =  1
d                 =  0
w     1           =  1
f              1  =  1
n  1              =  1
e  1              =  1

   =  =  =  =  =
   5  2  1  1  1



11-60
   x  m  u  f  h  Sum
x  3  1     1  1  =  6
l  3  1  1     2  =  7
d  2  1  2  2  1  =  8
w  5     1     1  =  7
f  2  1  2  2     =  7
n  4  2        2  =  8
e  2  1  2  1  1  =  7

   =  =  =  =  =
  21  7  8  6  8

No nature undead or fast, and no fast water. If we ignore the first 10 waves, even more types are lost. But don't get me wrong, I really like the wave structure as it is, like with water before nature healing (56, 57) and fire before dark fast (58, 59), so don't change that please.

The game allready is to long, so more waves are not an option imo.

If a new creep type would be so incredibly fascinating that an old typer could be replaced.. but imo thats not the case here either.

Now how about that: New creep types that only show up in chaos mode? That would really improve chaos to the point it could get the new standard.

On topic:

Persistant: Aka evasion, aka a way to raise the hp of the creeps aka boring.

Tank: Sounds good, but not good enough to replace an old type.

[Guest Sancdar]

Tank is a good suggestion for the "immune" type that we had been talking about though. Slows are less effective proportionally but aren't useless.

[Guest Warcryptic]

Lets keep it as it is, ok tank is a good idea, but its closer to copying other ideas (like immune what sancdar said), the game is original and good as it is with the creeps it has, dont change it.

[0rb3r]

No nature undead or fast, and no fast water. If we ignore the first 10 waves, even more types are lost. But don't get me wrong, I really like the wave structure as it is, like with water before nature healing (56, 57) and fire before dark fast (58, 59), so don't change that please.

You just exchange some of the element+no-class by element+newclass waves, no need to change element order, neighter the actual classifications order.

The game allready is to long, so more waves are not an option imo.

Thats right, I also feel a 60 waves for about 40 mins. is long enough, adding new classes will have no big effect on durance anyways.

Now how about that: New creep types that only show up in chaos mode? That would really improve chaos to the point it could get the new standard.

If we can't place them in normal mode, it's a good idea.

I think that for now about each third creep has a special class, if we introduce new classes it would rise up so that nearby each second creep wave has a special class, imo this is an improvement, not a loss, and it would give extra challege to the game.

[Cisz]

I think that for now about each third creep has a special class, if we introduce new classes it would rise up so that nearby each second creep wave has a special class, imo this is an improvement, not a loss, and it would give extra challege to the game.

You missed the numbers. Look at my table:

1-60
   x  m  u  f  h  Sum
x  6  2  1  1  1  = 11
l  3  1  1  1  2  =  8
d  2  1  2  2  1  =  8
w  5  1  1     1  =  8
f  2  1  2  2  1  =  8
n  5  2        2  =  9
e  3  1  2  1  1  =  8

   =  =  =  =  =
  26  9  9  7  9

26 is the number of all waves w/o special atribute. So right now less than half of the creeps (26 of 60) are standard and more than half of them have a special atribute. (9 Mech + 9 Undead + 7 Fast + 9 Healing = 34 of 60) On top of that, 6 waves are non elemental w/o attribute, which get only 90% of elemental damage and can be considered "tough"- or "hard"-type creeps in most cases. That brings the standard waves down 1/3 of all (20 of 60).

I'd say that's about enough.

[Guest ScouSin]

What if we added more waves though, to allow for more ease of new types of creeps, or made it so as difficulty increased, more creep types would appear during regular gameplay?

[Cisz]

What if we added more waves though, to allow for more ease of new types of creeps,

Read this:

The game allready is to long, so more waves are not an option imo.

Thats right, I also feel a 60 waves for about 40 mins. is long enough, adding new classes will have no big effect on durance anyways.

As for this:

or made it so as difficulty increased, more creep types would appear during regular gameplay?

I don't like that idea. The health and armor are to ballance the difficulties. If we change the waves, the difficulties would turn into different games. Like the players on easy play natures call circle defense and the players on hard are on blizzard td.

[Karawasa]

Here is an idea I had while reading this thread, why don't we make composite armor more meaningful? Cisz, you say they can be considered "tough," but 10% damage reduction isn't really THAT much. What if we made composite armor creeps take only 75% damage instead of 90% (from elemental damage)? That would make them "tough," waves, and we could call it a day on adding new creeps.

[Cisz]

I like that idea.

But as long composite damage will hit for full it might get very popular.

Keep in mind that the original idea was to make composite damage attractive because its simple, but a good combination of elemental damage is more cost efficient. If you upset that balance, the map could turn into a composite-only extravaganza.

11-60
   x  m  u  f  h  Sum
x  3  1     1  1  =  6
l  3  1  1     2  =  7
d  2  1  2  2  1  =  8
w  5     1     1  =  7
f  2  1  2  2     =  7
n  4  2        2  =  8
e  2  1  2  1  1  =  7

   =  =  =  =  =
  21  7  8  6  8

Assuming that each element appears 7.33 times and non elemental comes 6 times in wave 10-60, the average expected damage for composite is (6 x 7.33) + 6 = 50 waves of full damage (compared to 50 waves expectation), while elemental towers do (2 x 7.33) + (0.5 x 7.33) + (4 x 7.33) + (6 x 0.9) = 53,066 waves in 50. If you raise the resistance of non elemental creeps to 25% and keep composite at full damage, elemental damage will drop to ~52,2.

How about this: Composite towers do 86% to non elemental and elemental does 75%. That would drop composite to 49,1 and the factor of 1.06 more damage by elemental towers would be preserved. Mathemagics...

Oh, and maybe 25% resistance is to high, but we will know after a few games.

[Karawasa]

You can't say it will turn into a composite extravaganza based on those calculations. Those calculations do not take into consideration abilities, which are definitely more important. Besides, there won't be very many composite damage towers. Only testing will show whether 25% is too high or not.

[Cisz]

Yes - it's just likely, yes, ok, and yes. Please keep composite damage as a diverse way to deal damage. And as long as there are elemental and composite damagers (as opposed to support), my calculations aply. If I can chose at least one balanced composite damager, it will get stronger if you don't aply the suggested change.

[Guest Sancdar]

tank is a good idea, but its closer to copying other ideas (like immune what sancdar said)

Yeah, no reason to consider suggestions that are better versions of suggestions that wouldn't work out.

[Guest mrchak]

I think I'm late in the thread, but I agree that we really do not need new types. The Normal + 4 additional types works well. That being said, I like Tank better than persistent.

[0rb3r]

Sorry Cisz, I didn't fully understand your wave statistics.

One option:

If we consider Waves 1 - 4 fix, the variable part would be 56 waves

7 creep elements (including neutral) x 6 classifications = 42 Waves

7 creep elements (including neutral) with no classification x 2 = 14 Waves

Total 56 Waves, tecnically it would be possible to mix them so that you get different elements and classifications each round, and no one gets repeated except the absence of classification. I like it this way, but some ppl may consider that 42 classification rounds from 60 rounds may be too much.

Back on topic:

Persistent:

Pros: It is specifically weak against splash and strong against high damage except instant kill.

Cons: I think the idea may be not clear enough, at least, only by reading the name of the wave you should be able to realize what it does, if not, many ppl wont understand whats the wave about. Just think a newbe sees wave 34 Light+Persistent, first thing that will happen is that he will not be able to discrimine the wave until he reads the description at F9. I like more the idea of a hit evading wave, not only on death.

Tank:

Pros: Easy to understand, its a big, slow wave.

Cons: What exactly is the difference to normal waves? Maybe that it encourages to build more towers at the same spot and that it is weaker against slow. I don´t see the point at all. Imo it should ignore a fix part of the taken damage on each strike (like for example reducing taken damage by 5000 on each hit). This way it would clearly harm splash, which is according to description.

[0rb3r]

I think I'm late in the thread, but I agree that we really do not need new types. The Normal + 4 additional types works well. That being said, I like Tank better than persistent.

Well, I opened a poll and the results weren´t 100% clear, but I think that most ppl thinks it´s a try worth, maybe starting with only 5+ classif. and seeing if it makes the game more fun. I am absolutely for 6 and more diferenciated classes, with more interaction with the towers. It adds more smart planning to the game.

[echinodermata]

How about creeps with phase shift? Hmm...