[Towers] Time To Axe!

[Karawasa]

I'd like everyone to take a step back for a second and look at the design of the towers (duals/triples) that we are using. Enough time has passed where we can certainly consider remaking or replacing certain towers.

In my opinion, we did an excellent job with the design of the support towers. Thus, I am personally going to be focusing my gaze on the damage towers. That doesn't mean you have to do the same though.

What is bothering me (and thus was the spur for this post) is that amongst the damage towers there is a fair amount of repetition in underlying concept. We did an excellent job in masking this, but I believe we could add more to the game by tackling it.

Let me give you two examples,

1. Vapor, Quaker, Tidal, Radius

2. Disease, Hydro, Flame, Flamethrower

What is the deal with these lists?

1. All of these towers are AoE around the tower effect.

2. All of these towers are AoE around the creep effect.

I'm not proposing that we go and destroy all of these towers. Rather, I am just giving the catalyst behind the decision to make the post. Though it wouldn't hurt to see these two lists cut down by one or two either.

So back to the point. I'll start by suggesting some towers I would like to see changed, and why. I'd appreciate if you guys would not only critique my suggestions but also make your own.

• Mushroom: Not only is this tower like Magic ("gets beefier every X seconds"), it also suffers from not working correctly with buffs (thus requiring an absurd tooltip). Upon typing this post I realized a way I can fix Magic (but not Mushroom) so that it does work with buffs perfectly. Thus, this is one ability we can do without.
• Poison: This tower seems like the boring version of Ice. I think we can do better than to have two duals that are basically both shockwaves.
• Quark: This tower suffers from the not working correctly with buffs problem. At least with Zealot, you can argue that Well makes it charge faster so it equals out. So it feels like Zealot but suffers from unfixable problems.
• Vapor: We have enough AoE around the tower. Unlike the other ones, this is as bland as they come. I find this tower extremely boring too.
• Disease: This tower suffers from its limited nature (only so many corpses). It has to be overpowered because it can't be massed. At the same time, it loses effectiveness fast. As graphically pleasing as the effect is, I think it has to go.
• Flesh Golem: The idea of a traveling single target tower is not original (Oblivion). The teleport is cool looking. But, it is also bugged. Perhaps an Oblivion with only two minions at a time (to reduce micro intensity) would be a compromise that could eliminate the need for this tower.
• Flamethrower: Suffers from similar problems to Disease. Perhaps if the Napalm effect stacked such that you could essentially charge up units to explode for massive damage, would the problems be alleviated. Though with the way it is coded now, that isn't possible. I can probably fix that, but is it worth keeping the concept?

It's axing time!

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

1. Vapor, Quaker, Tidal, Radius

2. Disease, Hydro, Flame, Flamethrower

vapor and radius are the only two that i would consider to be roughly the same (though even then radius has =slightly= more placement considerations). yes, all of these have the same basic underlying principle, but they're different enough in my mind not to be considered repetitive at all.

likewise, i would consider all of the 2nd list to be "different enough".

I guess i really don't see why it's so important to have differences in "underlying concept". To me similarities such as quaker/zealot and mushroom/magic (mentioned below) are much more striking.

• Mushroom: Not only is this tower like Magic ("gets beefier every X seconds"), it also suffers from not working correctly with buffs (thus requiring an absurd tooltip). Upon typing this post I realized a way I can fix Magic (but not Mushroom) so that it does work with buffs perfectly. Thus, this is one ability we can do without.
• Poison: This tower seems like the boring version of Ice. I think we can do better than to have two duals that are basically both shockwaves.
• Quark: This tower suffers from the not working correctly with buffs problem. At least with Zealot, you can argue that Well makes it charge faster so it equals out. So it feels like Zealot but suffers from unfixable problems.
• Vapor: We have enough AoE around the tower. Unlike the other ones, this is as bland as they come. I find this tower extremely boring too.
• Disease: This tower suffers from its limited nature (only so many corpses). It has to be overpowered because it can't be massed. At the same time, it loses effectiveness fast. As graphically pleasing as the effect is, I think it has to go.
• Flesh Golem: The idea of a traveling single target tower is not original (Oblivion). The teleport is cool looking. But, it is also bugged. Perhaps an Oblivion with only two minions at a time (to reduce micro intensity) would be a compromise that could eliminate the need for this tower.
• Flamethrower: Suffers from similar problems to Disease. Perhaps if the Napalm effect stacked such that you could essentially charge up units to explode for massive damage, would the problems be alleviated. Though with the way it is coded now, that isn't possible. I can probably fix that, but is it worth keeping the concept?

mushroom, poison, and quark i agree with. vapor is...pretty boring indeed. I forgot to mention you have the exact same concept for NOVA and vapor. I think that's a big deal, despite the different roles.

i have never, NEVER liked flesh golem, but that's a personal bias =P

out of all of the towers listed, i would prioritize in this order (top is the "worst"/most boring)

-vapor

-mushroom

-quark

-poison

disease is "bad" but for a different reason than being "boring" as you stated. flesh golem i just hate personally. and i dont think flamethrower is a priority.

it's obvious the solution is to...

BRING JINX BACK =P

(jk)

[echinodermata]

Hmmm. I do like the axe hammer. I'll be taking a look at this soon.

We ought to dig up some old ideas from the graveyard of towers past.

[Twilice]

1, Radius

2, Mushroom

3, *new "debugged"* flamethower (no chain reactions)

4, Poision

5, Hydro (non support version)

6, Oblivion [it has no use in a "real" element TD game.] wy doesn't the creeps spawn instantly? wy?

7, FleshGolem

8, Disease (fun tower, but had similar faults like old hydro, doesn't stack according to the "table")

[Karawasa]

Upon discussion with holepercent, I propose a change to my original list. We keep Flesh Golem, remove the teleport, make it flying, and kill Oblivion instead.

[Karawasa]

<draftpick> think the case is to present everything properly

<draftpick> and not make it seem like cutting towers without proper 'planning'

<Karawasa> oh

<Karawasa> didn't I give reasons though

<draftpick> then cisz shouldn't be questioning the need to cut

<Karawasa> seeing as he never posted in that thread I wonder if he read it ;0

<draftpick> it's in the chatlog..

<Karawasa> well let me break it down like this

<Karawasa> towers that do not work correctly with support buffs are number one on axe list

<Karawasa> mainly quark (already replaced) and mushroom (to be replaced)

<Karawasa> then

<Karawasa> towers that do not work as damage dealers correctly are next

<Karawasa> disease (to be replaced) and flamethrower (already replaced)

<Karawasa> finally

<Karawasa> redundancies, towers that are too similar to other towers

<Karawasa> vapor and oblivion

<draftpick> so that should be posted in that thread..

<Karawasa> sure

<draftpick> the above*

<Karawasa> ill just copy the above

[PunKZ]

Upon discussion with holepercent, I propose a change to my original list. We keep Flesh Golem, remove the teleport, make it flying, and kill Oblivion instead.

I agree, I've used Oblivion like 3 or 4 times of all the games I've played.. such a boring tower..