The Future

[Karawasa]

I realize I have been inactive recently. The truth is, I was and am disillusioned with our current status. You may be too. The result of our hard work is not what I had in mind.

Our community still consists of you guys (hoping none of you disappeared), and a few other people. While still the most popular TD on BNET, the games list does not give me ETD that often (and I can't host). The site (and chat) are not getting the traffic they deserve either.

That being said, I don't believe the fault lies with us. Rather, I believe it is the platform that is to blame. WC3 is limited in regards to technical aspects, but more importantly, in regards to audience. We all know WC3 is dying, that is something no one will deny. The question is, do we join it in the coffin?

With distance from ETD, I came to realize just how fruitless our current path is, and just how fruitful another one could be. I came back because I did not want to put to waste the fruit of our collective labor over the years. I have great admiration for this development team, and I know we are sitting on the best of the genre.

Though work on 4.2 has stopped as of a couple months ago, I do not come back empty handed. Rather, I come with a vision. With this last sentence, I can't help but be overcome with a feeling of nostalgia. This would not be the first time I have come back with a "shake everything up" idea (think 3.0/4.0).

Flash. This idea is surely not new I hear you say. I have tried and failed to create a browser version several times over the years as a side project. But I have learned a lot from these failures, and I believe they now position us to seize a golden opportunity.

The time has come not to pursue this as a side project, but as the next step in the Element TD series.

Let me take a step back for a second. I do not mean to say that the WC3 version is dead. A 4.2 will be mandatory as the 1.24 patch will break ETD. Beyond that, I would not be opposed to continuing it as a side project. But as the main focus, that can't continue in my opinion.

Here is how we can go from a small niche to the talk of the internet. Though golden opportunity means great potential for return, it does not mean lack of risk. There is a risk for the time and money invested, there is a risk for the opportunity cost of not focusing on WC3, and there is a risk to our reputation and cohesion as a team.

I believe all the other risks are readily understandable except the financial. We will need both a coder and an artist. There is a lot to program, and there is a lot to draw. I can't give a solid estimate of cost without contacting local developers, but I can assure you it will be five digits ($10,000-$50,000).

That being said, it would be foolish not to seize the chance in my opinion. The market for multiplayer browser games of complexity is certainly not saturated, and when it comes to TDs it has but one entry (MPDTD). Flash 10 is recent, and from what I hear the technical potential is ripe.

In addition to shifting our focus, there are several other changes we can make to reduce the risk of failure. The first is finding and dealing with local flash developers. The second is hiring on a flat rate schedule. The third is drafting and securing the contract upfront. The fourth is greater inclusion of the development team. The fifth is proper planning before decisions are made.

Though risks may be reduced as shown, they can't be mitigated. The purpose of this post is to both declare my vision and to rally the team. Ultimately, we must decide which path to take. We can continue with WC3, that which is safe but mediocre. That most certainly leads to SC2. We can also switch to Flash, that which is risky but grand. That may lead to a standalone game, the "dream" if you will.

I can't do this alone, thus this will be an open ended discussion. I have certainly given my vision and my opinion, but no decision has been made. Every opinion is valued and helpful to our ongoing collaboration.

What do each of you think?

[Guest Void]

Flash? Hmm, I think it would be better in a 3D engine. That would also give me something to do

[dvdlesher]

So you're actually thinking:

1. To continue on WC3, which you say "safe but mediocre"

2. To continue on Flash 10. Copy (almost) everything into the flash version, so the EleTD would still exist?

Actually, I would really like to know the details about your idea of migrating EleTD to flash.... (altho I'm not good at all at flash)

[Karawasa]

Based upon discussion with MagicalHacker, there is potential that this project may be done in Java instead. Doing so would allow us to pursue 3D, a feature deemed unfeasible in Flash by MH. To get an idea of what is possible within the browser, have a look at http://www.runescape.com.

@lesher: What details did you have in mind? I would be happy to answer any questions you have.

Allow me to take a moment to more clearly define what I had in mind when I meant "migrate" over. A safe time range for the development of the browser version (i.e. how long until we release 1.0) would be 9-12 months.

Thus, it may seem like choosing to pursue option two will result in a lot of downtime for the team. This couldn't be further from the truth though. While it is true that there will be no testing until an alpha is out, there is much to brainstorm. With a browser version, the limitations we face now virtually disappear. To say we can do anything is an exaggeration, but compared to WC3 you might as well think like that.

My point being that modes, features, commands etc. that were previously shot down or were never suggested now have a chance to come to light. I hope this sounds as exciting to you guys as it does to me. Just as the 3.0/4.0 transition allowed us to brainstorm a great deal of new and exciting things (because going from GUI to JASS programming opened up a world of possibilities), so too should the WC3/Browser transition.

Of course, there is still the 4.2 either way. In the short term we would have testing for the 4.2 (support percent changes, Draft Pick, and compatibility with 1.24 patch) and brainstorming for the browser version. That seems like enough to fill everyone's plate (provided I get off my ass and get a new beta out). In the long term we would have testing for the alpha/beta phases of the browser version.

Going with option one would mean concentrating on putting out versions beyond 4.2. The browser version would still go ahead in some fashion, but there wouldn't be an expectation of the team to support it. Now we certainly haven't exhausted the game on WC3, but to me it seems WC3 has exhausted us (or at least me).

[Guest emjlr3]

@WC3 is dieing

actually, its dead, been dead for a number of years

bnet still exists for two reasons, melee and DoTA

this isnt in either catagory, thus it has no reason to exist, unfortunately

[Kaini]

There are some questions left.

Java or Flash. I think it is more easy to find a good Java developer than a good Flash developer. Then for Flash you would have to buy a stupid expensive licence. Both are installed on most PCs.

How do you want to earn money? I would suggest ads and maybe microtransactions.

I would suggest to write a detailed list of all your Goals for the first public version and a Roadmap.

Maybe the leaders could meet in IRC somewhen?

[Twilice]

As a "normal" guy I have no idea how that can cost so much, that is an outrageas amount of money.

But I do get your point, wc3 is dead, most players still play it because:

Waiting for Sc2

Dota

Ladder

Battletanks/Battleships

Well, that is wy I am playing it.

But with futher thinking, this could be an opportunity for me since I will start my first programming classes after this summer. It might not be advanced programming to start with, but it could help me get a good great and last year some students made a game as their project. It would be really cool if I could get programming that game as a project but I highly doubt it though.

So, I would help with support as always, but not financial wise sorry.

[Guest cohadar]

Flash is dead.

Anyways the gratest problems for moving would be

1. Making an engine

2. Making the graphics

And believe me the second one is much much greater.

Graphics cost around 90% of development time, I don't think that would be feasible without a good support from a community like hive.

There is also a danger that we might spend a yearn developing this and then get sunk with a lawsuit from blizzard if someone even thinks of using any blizzard models/textures.

Even a mods of those stuff would get us in trouble, hell we might get in trouble even if we don't do anything wrong...

Well that's my two cents of wisdom.

[Karawasa]

@emjlr3: My thoughts exactly. Nice of you to stop by.

@Kaini: Flash is easier to distribute and monetize, but Java would provide the better game. At the moment, I am leaning towards Java (more on that later). Perhaps it is too early for an IRC meeting (i.e. some faces are missing from this thread).

@13est: Yes, it is a large sum of money. Recent developments may change that (more on that later). In regards to the type of contribution, let me be clear in saying that there is no requirement for the financial. As it has always been, all that I require is your brain. That being said, if any of you are interested in having a "stake" in this project then you're welcome to PM me.

@cohadar: It is true that graphics will be the bigger burden. I plan on hiring an artist or two to take care of these needs. Voluntary work (i.e. "community support") just won't cut it, unless we want a game out in years (i.e. unacceptable). In regards to legal issues, we will certainly not be using any Blizzard models/textures or modifications of them. In fact, I'd like to take this opportunity to try out a new artistic theme (WC3 is just a little too cartoony for me). Nice of you to stop by.

The "more on this later" is in regards to the back and forth I have been having with MagicalHacker. This is preliminary, and I stress preliminary, but we may already have the coding needs fulfilled (and fulfilled well) with MH (and his business partner, another avid programmer). He strongly prefers Java over Flash, and that seemed a make or break point. Also, it seems he is not the only one to say so (everyone else in this thread has been saying Java > Flash too). If things pan out and MH and Co. take on the coding side of things, that alleviates costs too.